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Wanted: Dead or alive

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by npetreley, Jun 1, 2003.

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  1. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    There is an interesting contrast in John 11.

    The contrast is as follows:

    1. If you believe in Jesus, though you may die, yet you shall live

    2. If you live and believe in Jesus, you shall never die.

    I found the above difficult to sort out, and although I have my own opinion of how the two seemingly disjointed statements fit together, I'm not 100% certain of my conclusion.

    Rather than share it yet, I wondered what others thought the above means. If you live and believe in Jesus and therefore never die, how is it possible that you can die and believe in Jesus, yet you will live?

    I will address an obvious interpretation, however (text added in brackets is mine, of course):

    John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die [physically], he shall live [spiritually, and eventually physically at the resurrection]. 26 And whoever lives [spiritually] and believes in Me shall never die [spiritually].

    While the above may be true (and note the eternal security of the believer if this is the right interpretation), I'm not so sure this is what Jesus is saying. Anyway, I hope others have thoughts.

    I hope this is the right place to start this discussion.
     
    #1 npetreley, Jun 1, 2003
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    You are on track with that interpretation, friend! The second phrase in dependendent on the first.

    IF part one is true (though die, yet live)
    THEN part two is true (never really die)

    And eternal security is probably taught most strongly in all of the Gospels in John 10-15. (Jesus was only days from death and knew that this would be a real issue for heart-sick disciples)
     
    #2 Dr. Bob, Jun 2, 2003
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Well, this is going to sound weird, because I agree with the interpretation I cited, and I'd be perfectly content to leave it at that if I didn't wonder if there were more to it. The second verse seems entirely superfluous unless its whole purpose is eternal security. If that's what it's there for, then that's probably all there is to it.

    But every once in a while, I wonder about the issue that those who "die" in the Lord actually don't die, but "fall asleep", and I wonder if that has anything to do with the verse.
     
    #3 npetreley, Jun 2, 2003
  4. Anja

    Anja New Member

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    The ‘First Resurrection’ is the Rapture which involves the resurrection of both dead and living believers. Therefore the verse will read like this;
    John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. (Though he may die of natural causes, he will be resurrected at the Rapture and live eternally) 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. (And whoever is alive when I come back and believes in Me shall be Raptured without dying).
    Ref. 1 Co 15:51 and 52, Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed (at the Rapture),
     
    #4 Anja, Jun 11, 2003
  5. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    I'm not wanting to evolve this into an eternal security debate, but I think the Greek word translated "believeth" is in the tense that conveys an ongoing belief, rather than a one-time belief. I don't have my reference tools with me at the moment - can anyone verify or confute?
     
    #5 BrianT, Jun 11, 2003
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