Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Was Adam once saved always saved? He had been given the gift eternal life, partaking of the tree of life, had he not? Was he always eteranlly secure in spite of the fall?
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Was Adam a Calvinist?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: If Adam had not been given the gift of eternal life, what made his existence possible? He walked and communed openly with God in the garden before the fall, and was told he could partake of every tree (but one,) including the tree of life, if not in particular to partake of the tree of life. Are you telling me that he was not a partaker of the gift of eternal life prior to the fall? Had he not sinned, what would have been his demise? Would he not have existed with God eternally, or was Adam created just some temporal blob of flesh necessitated to pass into oblivion at some yet undesignated point in time? Be careful to examine closely your position. You are, as far as I can tell, stating that man was not created to exist with God eteranlly as he was created. Are you sure that is the position you desire to take? Just remeber, if you take that position, there are some logical ends to that position that you must be willing to accept as yours as well.
Whoa, there....:saint:
Adam and Eve did not partake of the tree of life. They ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that was in the middle of the garden. Genesis 2:9
They did not receive gift eternal life from eating anything. In fact, they the gift that they received was the gift of death. I say death was a gift for this reason.
Genesis 3:22 says that God protected Adam and Eve from the tree of life. God said that mankind was now sinful and if they ate from the tree of life that they would live forever. So God banished them from Eden.
He banish them from His Holy Presence as a punishment and banished them from the tree of life as a protection. If Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of life after the fall, then they would have roamed the earth for literal eons and would still be here today, in the flesh, sinful to the core, and unable to die.
Just imagine the horror of being trapped in the fleshly body forever.
The gift of death was just that. Mankind, sinful humanity, has to die. The wage of sin is death and our flesh must die so that our souls can be released to join Christ in Heaven.
We do not choose the time of our own death, but God does. God punished mankind by bringing forth death as a consequence of sin. But in that consequence is love untold. If we never died in the flesh, we would never be with the Father in Heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9
We will all see the the tree of life someday, including Adam and Eve.
Revelation 22:2 says that the tree of life is in the New Jerusalem, the city in Heaven.
Revelation 22:14 says, "Bless are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Adam and Eve did not partake of the tree of life. They ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that was in the middle of the garden. Genesis 2:9
They did not receive gift eternal life from eating anything. In fact, they the gift that they received was the gift of death. I say death was a gift for this reason.
Genesis 3:22 says that God protected Adam and Eve from the tree of life. God said that mankind was now sinful and if they ate from the tree of life that they would live forever. So God banished them from Eden.
He banish them from His Holy Presence as a punishment and banished them from the tree of life as a protection. If Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of life after the fall, then they would have roamed the earth for literal eons and would still be here today, in the flesh, sinful to the core, and unable to die.
Just imagine the horror of being trapped in the fleshly body forever.
The gift of death was just that. Mankind, sinful humanity, has to die. The wage of sin is death and our flesh must die so that our souls can be released to join Christ in Heaven.
We do not choose the time of our own death, but God does. God punished mankind by bringing forth death as a consequence of sin. But in that consequence is love untold. If we never died in the flesh, we would never be with the Father in Heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9
We will all see the the tree of life someday, including Adam and Eve.
Revelation 22:2 says that the tree of life is in the New Jerusalem, the city in Heaven.
Revelation 22:14 says, "Bless are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: We are not discussing anything subsequent to the fall, we are speaking of their state prior to the fall. Were they eternal beings prior to the fall in a proper relationship with God, created in a state of being ‘eternal beings?’
I get you now, I fell for the eternal security trap. Your question is really if Adam was saved before the fall, why did he loose his salvation at the fall.
To answer, there was no need for salvation before the fall. To be saved one has to be saved from something. Since there was no sin before the fall, there was no need for salvation. When Adam walked in communion with GOD, there was no sin in the world so the world (at that moment of time) didn't need a savior.
the tree of life has no impact on those with no sin. Those in the Church with no sin have no need for a savior. If Adam did eat of this tree before he sinned it would be like taking the cure before the desease.
To answer, there was no need for salvation before the fall. To be saved one has to be saved from something. Since there was no sin before the fall, there was no need for salvation. When Adam walked in communion with GOD, there was no sin in the world so the world (at that moment of time) didn't need a savior.
the tree of life has no impact on those with no sin. Those in the Church with no sin have no need for a savior. If Adam did eat of this tree before he sinned it would be like taking the cure before the desease.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Were they created as eternal beings prior to the fall and in a right relationship with God? God clearly told them they could partake of the tree of life. Why is it that you say they did not? Did they not have the hope of eternal life with God as long as they lived in obedience to His Word??
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Very well. Then what was his nature before the fall? Would you say that it was holy, pure, in a right relationship with God, and as such he could rightfully lay hold to the hope of eternal life with God as long as he remained obedient?
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Yes, I agree so far. But don't overlook the covenant GOD made in Gen 2:17, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
There is discussion as to if this was physical or spiritual death. I believe both. He was warned and GOD kept his word!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I would agree. Now, being created as eternal beings, and currently finding themselves in a right relationship with God, were they not eternally secure? I mean, could God have given them eternal life and them took it away?? Surely not!! Once eternal life, always eternal life, right? (according to once saved always saved)
Brother Bob
New Member
I like that temporal blob. lol Peace, :applause: :applause:
One death was pronounced upon him and the other happened then. (Spiritual)
Lead a horse to the water but you can't make him drink HP: lol OSAS. This was before the blood of Christ has been shed. We all believe that Israel could fall or at least I do it is after you have received the blood of Christ that you are kept until the day of redemption.
One death was pronounced upon him and the other happened then. (Spiritual)
Lead a horse to the water but you can't make him drink HP: lol OSAS. This was before the blood of Christ has been shed. We all believe that Israel could fall or at least I do it is after you have received the blood of Christ that you are kept until the day of redemption.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Hey Brother Bob,
Wade on in! No sharks in these waters:laugh:
Joseph M. Smith
New Member
What a delicious anachronism!
But we can speculate endlessly about this kind of thing if we read Genesis literally and think that Adam and Eve were individual human beings with a time and space existence rather than symbols of humanity's ever-applicable story.
But we can speculate endlessly about this kind of thing if we read Genesis literally and think that Adam and Eve were individual human beings with a time and space existence rather than symbols of humanity's ever-applicable story.
Alright...
...no, Adam and Eve did not eat of the tree of life before the fall, either. If they had, then when they sinned, they would still be here today, walking the earth and eternal flesh, sinful flesh, and unable to die physically.
Yes, they were eternal before the fall. But not eternal in salvation. Not eternal because of the tree of life. They were eternal because there was no death. No animals died, no plants died, and Adam and Eve did not experience death.
Were they in a "right relationship" with God? Were they saved? No. Saved from what? There was no sin nature. No rebelious heart.
They were not bound for heaven nor hell. They were simply created beings who would have remained in the flesh, earth-bound, and walking with God in the garden.
Peaceful? Content? Yes.
Saved? Headed for heaven? No.
They would have never reached heaven.
Yes, they were eternal before the fall....eternal in the flesh. The flesh isn't what determines your destiny. The soul is.
There were eternal before the fall because there was no death....NOT because they ate from the tree of life. They did not.
Genesis 2:9 says there were three different kinds of trees.
...no, Adam and Eve did not eat of the tree of life before the fall, either. If they had, then when they sinned, they would still be here today, walking the earth and eternal flesh, sinful flesh, and unable to die physically.
Yes, they were eternal before the fall. But not eternal in salvation. Not eternal because of the tree of life. They were eternal because there was no death. No animals died, no plants died, and Adam and Eve did not experience death.
Were they in a "right relationship" with God? Were they saved? No. Saved from what? There was no sin nature. No rebelious heart.
They were not bound for heaven nor hell. They were simply created beings who would have remained in the flesh, earth-bound, and walking with God in the garden.
Peaceful? Content? Yes.
Saved? Headed for heaven? No.
They would have never reached heaven.
Yes, they were eternal before the fall....eternal in the flesh. The flesh isn't what determines your destiny. The soul is.
There were eternal before the fall because there was no death....NOT because they ate from the tree of life. They did not.
Genesis 2:9 says there were three different kinds of trees.
- every kind of tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food
- the tree life
- the tree of knowledge of good and evil
Brother Bob
New Member
Well, It takes sin to bring death and Adam was without sin before the fall. It stands to reason if by sin we die then Adam could of lived forever but there would of been no one else but Adam and Eve.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
God says "Now Lest man eat of the tree and live forever' -- and then He cast Adam OUT of the Garden.
Adam did not start off saying "IF I sin it is God making me sin - for I have no free will".
When God "allowed" Adam to exercise free will even if it meant sinning - "what did it cost God"??
Adam did not start off saying "IF I sin it is God making me sin - for I have no free will".
When God "allowed" Adam to exercise free will even if it meant sinning - "what did it cost God"??