Was Charles Wesley really a Calvinist?

Friend:

I learned just this past summer that Bro. Charles differed with his brother John on theology. He was in line with Whitefield, but Bro. George encouraged him to continue the work with his brother. Interesting stuff, eh? I learned this from an international evangelist from Great Britain (Leslie Smith).

"And Can It Be?" - One of my favorites of all time!

Rev. G

 

Chris:

Hey! I just noticed that you are "Chris from Crowley." Now I know who you are....

Rev. G

 

Your hypothesis intrigued me, so I got my
hymnal to read the song, And Can It Be.

Perhaps I do not see what you see. The only
verse in my hymnal which could possible be
questioned by those in my Arminian back-
ground would be the final of the five verses I
have, but it would not have been questioned
at all.

No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine!
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th' eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.

"No condemnation now I dread" would have
been thought a fine line, if one remained sin-
free. Many, really all believed they lived
without sin, so they feared no condemnation.

The difference is a definition of sin in the
Arminian circles I was reared in. Sin was such
very tangible acts as theft, lying, adultery, etc.
Other less concrete sins were called "errors"
and were passed off.

Is this final verse the part of the song to which
you refer? Also, can you tell me more about
Ccharles' differences with his brother's ideas?

[ September 23, 2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

I think that it is difficult to see ow an arminian, believing as he would that he is able to believe in Christ, could see himself in the first verse (going by memory)

And can it be that I should gain
An interest in the saviour's blood?
Died he for me, who caused his pain
For me who Him to death pursued!

Seems to me that an Arminian wold have a hard time saing that he chased Christ to the Cross if he thought he could as esily believe in Him.

I also find it difficult to see how an arminian could write (again, memory)

"Tis mercy all immense and free"

This speaks of God's freedom and sovereignty to me.

And the part about the quickening ray preceeding the chains falling off and walking away? That's a classic efectual call image IMO.

[ September 23, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Latreia ]

 

Latreia --

Now that I have left Arminianism, I have spent
more time trying to figure it out! 8o) Neither of
these statements would have run cross-grain
to what we were taught.

And can it be that I should gain
An interest in the saviour's blood?
Died he for me, who caused his pain?
For me who Him to death pursued?

We were taught that it was our sins which
nailed Him to the cross, that caused Him
grief, that if was His death and resurrection
that allowed us salvation, and that it is His
blood that cleanses.

We believed in the mercy of our Lord and that
He freely gave it. What am I missing? When I
realized Arminianism was wrong, this was
completely based upon the fact that they teach
that they do not sin, yet my Bible was showing
me that they did. I must stilll be missing some
other concepts. Any help will be appreciated.

 

We believed in the mercy of our Lord and that
He freely gave it. What am I missing? When I
realized Arminianism was wrong, this was
completely based upon the fact that they teach
that they do not sin, yet my Bible was showing
me that they did. I must stilll be missing some
other concepts. Any help will be appreciated.</font>[/QUOTE]Maybe Im seeing too much Abiyah. Let me think abut it some more.

 

Thank you. 8o)

 

We all tend to have better theology in our prayer lives and our serious hymnology than what we do in our other spiritual exercises.

Ken

[ September 23, 2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Abiyah,

Would you say that the fourth verse--the one about being chained in a dark dungeon until the quicken ray of God awakens you is a typical Arminian description of the conversion experience?

And I don't think John Wesley believed in imputed righteousness, and I see imputed righteousness all over the 5th verse.

BTW, this has been my favorite hymn since I was 8 or so. I used to always request it during Sunday evening hymn request services. The pianists in my tiny church were inexperienced (okay, they weren't particularly good), and I gave them more than a few grey hairs requesting that song all the time.

 

Hi!

Yes, I would say so.

Now, remember that I am new to this Calvinist
belief! I know what impute means all right,
but what does imputed righteousness mean
in religious circles? 8oD I have never heard the
term before!

I have sung it in churches before, and I recall
the harmony as being very interesting and
occasionally challlenging to the basses!
Looking at the music on my copy, I have been
trying out the parts.

 

When we are justified, we are counted as righteous--even though we aren't actually righteous--because we are in Christ and his righteousness is accounted to us.

 

I'd thought I read somewhere that he didn't but apparently I am mixed up.

[ September 24, 2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

Hello, russell55.

Welcome to the Music Ministry Forum.

 

No, but I do plan on finding out.

Rev. G