Was Christ Ignorant of OSAS?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Jedi Knight
I see - so you want to stick with scripture itself - and not deal with what someone "says" -- good change of plan.

-------------quoting BobRyan as BobRyan quoted Matt 18
Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared[/b] to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

...
...
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], ifeach of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''



I can say that when you build your whole theology on one passage "as you do"....you are not sound. Cults use this tactic....

When your response to the teaching of Christ in the Gospel is merely the sad "cults use this tactic" instead of exegeting the text or showing any value at all for "sola scriptura testing" of doctrine, then you turn from the very heart of protestant principle back to the superstitious "name calling" of the dark ages.

As for the idea that you get to ignore at least one chapter in the Bible to stick to your man-made-traditions.

How about Romans 11 "You should FEAR for you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them - neither will He spare you"

Gal 5:4 "You have fallen from Grace"..."you have been severed from Christ".

This list gets pretty long - so you need to re-think if you are going to be reduced to simply responding to each problem from scripture with nothing more substantive than the dark ages solution of "name calling".

Would you rather I said man-made like you do?

If you would stop to try and exegete your argument out of the hole it is left in - based on these texts - and if you feel the need to preface that with "Bob your man-made tradition..." then fine.

But sooner or later you are going to have to get around to showing that you have some actual value for "sola scriptura testing" of doctrine - or give it up completely.

[quote=Jedi Knight]
Those in Romans 9 were not in Christ...so that cannot be they were cut off from their relationship with Christ. Romans 9 referrs to the jews who rejected the free gift of eternal life.....never did they have it to begin with and lost the opportuniy"cut off".[/quote]

Here it would have paid you to open your Bible.

My reference above is stated as being from Romans 11

If you need more detail to see the OSAS argument demolished in Romans 11 -- then fine.

First we start with the "Gentiles" that you say do not exist as subjects in the text itself --

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

==================== The Root of the Olive Tree being Christ

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Here it would have paid you to open your Bible.

I do and it's falling apart.:smilewinkgrin: You think that the Jews were saved and lost their salvation? Thats not what the text says. Compare scripture with scripture....He came to His own,but His own recieved Him not......who do ya think "His own" was referring to?

 

[BobRyan]

The text says that they were broken off for unbelief.

Christ is the root - they were the branches.

There is no salvation apart from Christ, neither is there "by grace you have been saved apart from faith". I had hoped we had agreement to that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jedi Knight]

The text says that they were broken off for unbelief.

Christ is the root - they were the branches.

There is no salvation apart from Christ, neither is there "by grace you have been saved apart from faith". I had hoped we had agreement to that point.

in Christ,

Bob

Wow .....just WOW! You really don't get it. They were not born again....so no salvation lost......opportunity is what the text clearly explains.

 

[BobRyan]

Wow .....just WOW! You really don't get it. They were not born again....so no salvation lost......opportunity is what the text clearly explains.

First we start with the "Gentiles" that you say do not exist as subjects in the text itself --

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

==================== The Root of the Olive Tree being Christ

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Notice that instead of the totally illogical "you stand only by your faith - you should fear for if he did not spare those who were never saved to start with - he will not spare you" - the text argues that they did really fall and that the save saints of Rom 11 should take that as a valid warning for those who "stand only by their faith".

God's Word DOES have value as it turns out - and sola scriptura testing of doctrine involves actually looking at the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jedi Knight]

Bob-"First we start with the "Gentiles" that you say do not exist as subjects in the text itself --" Putting words in my mouth "or text" do not confirm your posistion. I knew Paul was talking TO the Gentiles ABOUT the Jews and what happened to them as examples......I figured you could follow along. Bob you said "God's Word DOES have value as it turns out". Are you implying if others don't see things the way you do it is not valuable to them?

 

[BobRyan]

Would you rather I said man-made like you do? Those in Romans 9 were not in Christ...so that cannot be they were cut off from their relationship with Christ. Romans 9 refers to the jews who rejected the free gift of eternal life.....never did they have it to begin with and lost the opportuniy"cut off".

First we start with the "Gentiles" that you say do not exist as subjects in the text itself --

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

==================== The Root of the Olive Tree being Christ

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Notice that instead of the totally illogical "you stand only by your faith - you should fear for if he did not spare those who were never saved to start with - he will not spare you" - the text argues that they did really fall and that the save saints of Rom 11 should take that as a valid warning for those who "stand only by their faith".

God's Word DOES have value as it turns out - and sola scriptura testing of doctrine involves actually looking at the text.

Your wild argument that they were merely in a position of "having opportunity" to be connected with Christ in salvation - and that they were only cut off from all opportunity (as if Jews are now not even savable) is flatly contradicted by the text itself.

23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

They STILL remain in the realm of "having opportunity" to be saved - but no longer are they connected to Christ in saving relationship.

Welcome to the concept of "sola scriptura" testing.

And then here is the part where the instruction TO Gentiles is focused and not merely "I want to tell stories about Jews".

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

While we are on the subject of sola scriptura testing - let us review how the teaching of Christ in the Gospels so perfectly matched the Word of God that they had at that time.

Here is Christ's own teaching.

Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


Now let's compare that Matt 18 text to God's Word in Ezek 18 speaking to the exact same subject.

Ezek 18
20"The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

22"All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

25"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right ' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?

26"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.

27"Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

28"Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

29"But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

30"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.


31"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

32"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

 

[Jedi Knight]

Your wild argument that they were merely in a position of "having opportunity" to be connected with Christ in salvation - and that they were only cut off from all opportunity (as if Jews are now not

They STILL remain in the realm of "having opportunity" to be saved -
13But I am speaking to [/COLOR
Bob

If they repent of their unbelief they will not stay cut off. I know your lack of confidence in God's love for keeping his own can cast doubt in the context and force more than thats there. You do act haughty towards others who see it diffrently.

 

[BobRyan]

Wow .....just WOW! You really don't get it. They were not born again....so no salvation lost......opportunity is what the text clearly explains.

That was the Flip

You appear to argue that their being "removed" was not being removed "from a saved condition" but rather being removed from "the opportunity" to be connected to Christ.

And here is the flop where you admit that they have not lost the "opportunity" at all - and can choose to come to Christ in repentance today just as at any time in the past.

If they repent of their unbelief they will not stay cut off. .

Indeed if they do not continue in unbelief THEN in fact He is able to "graft them in AGAIN" - for in that case they would be standing by faith - believing in Jesus Christ as Messiah.

in Christ,

Bob