Was it the Cross?

[SpiritualMadMan]

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I read this as Present Tense, after Salvation...

While Spiritually and Legally our all our sins are forgiven at the Cross...

We still live in a sin contaminated world and as long as we are in this world we will continue to "Miss The Mark"...

As long as we continue to "Miss The Mark" we need to Confess our Sins to keep them "covered"...

Remember that the only real problem with a Living Sacrifice is that it keeps crawling off the Altar...

Now as to the final result of steadfastly failing to own up to and confess these sins (Missing the Mark)...

I will leave that to the pugilistic Armenians and calvinists among.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
So Eliyahu do you have to confess your sins or not? If you do have to confess your sins why?

Do you have to ask forgiveness of your sins or not? If you do then why do you have to do that?

I have the answer before I pray because it is in the Word of God. God says if you confess and ask then He will grant forgiveness. This is all based on Christ's finished work at the cross. He does not have to die again. He died once and that is sufficient.

But the only sin that was dealt with was your past sin. Your present sin and your future sin has the cleansing power of the blood of Christ only if you ask for it. It is not automatic as you suggest.

If it were there would be no reason to have an Advocate with the Father, because that sin was already dealt with and we wouldn't need someone to act on our behalf.

This may apply to both you and SpiritualMadMan.

You have to be accurate in terms here!

1) Yes, I confess my sins to my God because I make mistakes and commit sins.

2) When I confess my sins and turn to God, then I find my sins were already forgiven at the Cross. What does John say in 1 John 1:9?
Does he say that "If we ask God for the forgiveness of sins,.. then He is faithful to forgive us ?" Nope! Read carefully again there!
IF we CONFESS our sins! Does He forgive us with a New Cross? Does He send Jesus each time so that He may be killed again and again?
What are the bases upon which God forgive your sins?

3) I hope you yourselves find the answers.
Whenever God forgives our sins, He doesn't forgive us based on any other Sacrifice or our efforts than the Crucifixion at the Cross which was done already 2000 years ago. This is why the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ is so important and Jesus is so precious to us all!

When we confess our sins to God, God turns our eyes unto Jesus who shed the blood for that newly found sins as well.

Read John 20:23 and check the tense of Greek sentences. I must tell you many of English translation of Acts 3:19 were wrong in tenses and the correct translation is this:

Repent ye therefore, and return to the fact that your sins were blotted out (already at the Cross)... ( Acts 3:19- aorist, passive, infinitive- which means "event occurred once in the past") Holy Spirit is very much careful in choosing the tense.


Crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the Center of all Eternity, from Eternity to Eternity.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I think we've been in this tit for tat so long we're no longer sure of what we are fighting over?

I see some truth in both posts...

But, the semantics can be troubling...

As for accuracy and knowledge I only need to be accurate and knowledgable in my need for Jesus...

For it is His sacrifice of His own Blood that cleanses from sin and it is by His Righteousness that I can enter into my (adoptive) Fathers Presence...

As I said there is a need for obedience...

A person is "Obedient" when they admit they are a sinner and invite Jesus to be Lord of their Life...

If they are not obedient in admiting that they are a sinner they will not invite Jesus to be Lord...

So, in this sense Obedience is essential for Salvation...

IMHO, it is not enough to ask Jesus to be a Life Assurer... He must be Lord.... This implies Obedience to a Master...

Also, while Christ paid the full price for our salvation for all eternity... We still have to accept and appropriate it to our lives for it to be effective...

I can have new brakes on a car going downhill on a long steep grade...

But, if I don't use the brakes I will have a more than likely fatal accident at some point in that run down the mountain.


Of course I am Armenian in my basic belief system...

I can see where this would be a real mind bender for a OSAS person.

For me it isn't either problem or a threat...

Though I believe I could theoretically ultimately kick Christ out of my life by making a concerted effort at disobedience...

I am not likely to do so because of the Love Christ has shed in my Heart...

Further, His own love will not let me go without a fight...

And, I have no doubt He can out love me. In fact He has done so once already. But, that's another story.

The Cross was the implement that was used for implementing Christ's Sacrifice...

The Cross by itself is useless without a sinless Lamb of God, and His Shed Blood...

The proof of the efficacy (not to mention acceptability) of Christ's Sacrifice was displayed in His Bodily Resurrection...

But, I think we are spending a lot of time on diverse issue and have strayed from the original intent of the thread?

Mike Sr.

 

[J. Jump]

Okay I have to eat some crow here as I John 1:9 doesn't talk about asking forgiveness. I'm not sure what I was looking at as I'm carrying on this conversation as well as a couple of others on this board and through email

My apologies.

However, the semantics that are still in play is the forgiveness at the cross. They weren't forgiven then. They are forgiven when you confess, based on the finished work of the cross.

When we sin after salvation by grace through faith that sin remains unforgiven until it is confessed. Once it is confessed then it is forgiven based on the finished work of the cross. Christ is still acting as High Priest. He doesn't die again, but His blood hasn't run out either. He is still applying His blood to our sin when we confess it. And He will continue to do this when we sin in the future, because He is our High Priest and Advocate.

Are we now saying the same things Eliyahu?

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Okay I have to eat some crow here as I John 1:9 doesn't talk about asking forgiveness. I'm not sure what I was looking at as I'm carrying on this conversation as well as a couple of others on this board and through email

My apologies.

However, the semantics that are still in play is the forgiveness at the cross. They weren't forgiven then. They are forgiven when you confess, based on the finished work of the cross

We are quite nearer each other, but that kind of delicate difference can result in big difference in reality and therefore let's be careful once again.

I asked you what was the answer from God ultimately when you asked Him for the Forgiveness. You never brought the answer yet. Therefore I want to tell you my experience again.
I have prayed God deperately until I get the answer from Him for my request for the forgiveness of sins. Then the first answer was that I was crucified with Christ at the Cross ( Gal 2:20). It was my Salvation. Thereafter I noticed I myself is sinful and terrible, betraying God even after Salvation. Then I was in big agony and screamed to God, then the answer from God was that your sin, even that sin was forgiven because of the Redemption by Jesus at the Cross.
Repeatedly, I have experienced the forgiveness again and again from God for each sin after the Salvation. What is the status before I get such forgiveness from God? Or What if I don't get the answer from God? It is a sin of Unbelief.
The reason why we are condemned is not because of the sin itself, but because we don't believe even that sin was forgiven at the Cross.

Jesus didn't leave any further work to do, when He cried " It is finished" He didn't tell a lie there!
He said " It is finished" " Nothing was unfinished" Only problems occur because people don't believe it!

Jesus' Cry was not a conditional offer, but the Final Offer! the Completed Declaration!

If you want to check what I am saying is true of not, you'd better pray God until you get the answer from Him. It will be a wonderful experience to have the answer from God directly.

Every time when I pray God, I found the forgiveness and His Love were already shown at the Cross, God connects me with such Truth and Gifts of the past. He doesn't forgive me newly.

There is no remission of sins without blood. ( Heb 9:22.) If you ask for the forgiveness of sins, you need the blood for it. The sinless Blood.

 

[Eliyahu]

Jump,

One more question.
Do you believe that even the sins of Hitler or Stalin were forgiven at the Cross?

Then why do they go to the Hell?

Because they didn't believe the Redemption at the Cross.

Read John 3:18-21, 36.


Belief or Unbelief is so important. Works and Change of Lifestyle follow thereafter.

 

[J. Jump]

Eliyahu I don't think you and I are that close after reading your last two responses. To be perfectly honest I don't follow you. Your next to last response didn't make much sense to me.

I will stick to I John which says that if I confess my sin God will forgive it, but if it goes unconfessed then it goes unforgiven.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
I will stick to I John which says that if I confess my sin God will forgive it, but if it goes unconfessed then it goes unforgiven. [/QB]

Yes, you are right in that sentence. But when God forgives you, are the sins forgiven newly or does God remind you that such sins were forgiven already, though that notice is given now?

 

[J. Jump]

No if they were forgiven already there would be no need to confess. That would be redundant.

 

[Eliyahu]

The main point of the issue is whether God provides another solution for the sins after Salvation. - Nope for this. Only the Crucifixion at the Cross was enough.

When we confess our sins, do we go further that we ask God to forgive? Our confession must be aimed at a certain solution and therefore it can be Asking God for some solution which means eventually forgiveness and relief. As I repeated this prayer many times, I found the contradiction with the truth that God has done everything for us already. Then why do I bother with the sins? Problem is the unbelief due to the spiritual blindness. Knowing that God has forgiven all sins of ours, if we ask God to forgive them again, it just shows the unbelief in a certain way. I know the actual reality that every person encounter with the sins. But eventually what we can ask God, is this "Lord, please let me know this also has been resolved at the Cross " or " Lord let me experience your forgiveness at the Cross once again"

Regardless any type of expression, apparently God would not forgive us without any redmption by shedding of blood.

Regardless of any type of expression, God would not forgive us based on a new crucifixion other than what Jesus Christ has done at the Cross.

God's forgiveness for our sins after our salvation is just the notification of what Jesus has done already, letting us realize that such sins were included in the forgiveness at the Cross.

 

[gekko]

"if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

compared to:

"No if they were forgiven already there would be no need to confess. That would be redundant. "

 

[Melanie]

Gekko...howdy whaddyamean waiting for Brisbane.....are you coming to the Antipodes or what....

Havagoodweekend

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Okay I have to eat some crow here as I John 1:9 doesn't talk about asking forgiveness. I'm not sure what I was looking at as I'm carrying on this conversation as well as a couple of others on this board and through email

My apologies.

However, the semantics that are still in play is the forgiveness at the cross. They weren't forgiven then. They are forgiven when you confess, based on the finished work of the cross.

When we sin after salvation by grace through faith that sin remains unforgiven until it is confessed. Once it is confessed then it is forgiven based on the finished work of the cross.

That is an Arminian "atonement" view of the Cross where the act at the Cross is the "Atoning Sacrifice" portion of Lev 16 (the Atonement process) and Heb 8 is the High priest portion - ongoing for us today.

The Calvinist model is more more along the lines of "please ignore what God says in Lev 16 about atonement and ignore the work of christ in Heb 8 as our High Priest as IF that was key to the Lev 16 model for Atonement".

Because Calvinism takes the "grocery store model" instead of the atonement model for sin and forgiveness - they "need" the concept of "limited atonement". After all "it is all finished" and the groceries are in the bag - nothing else is being done -- not even by Christ HIMSELF!!

That model INSISTS that you have no possibility of going to God and asking for forgiveness NOT EVEN AT conversion because your sins were FULLY forgiven long before you were born!

They are then "stuck" with "universalism" unless they leap wildly into "limited atonement" and "limited grace" "limited Love" etc.

They end up with "God so loved the FEW of Matt 7 that He let Christ propitiate HIM for those FEW".

In that model - the groceries are not only paid for - "you have them" and that is it! Atonement as God defines it in Lev 11 does not even enter the picture for them - hence no need to repent.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In 1John 2 we find this --

1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

So "IF" we sin after coming to salvation we can trust in our "Advocate with the Father" -- but if His work in that regard is ended - WHAT is that "Advocate doing" WHEN we sin??

Did the author mean to say "WE HAD an advocate with the Father on the Cross"??

2Cor 7
8For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it--for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while--
9I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that ][you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance[/b]; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
10For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
11For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.

Here is a clear case for "repentance" post salvation. The entire church at Corinth was "in need of it" according to this text!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 2
1 ""To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:
2 " I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.
4 "But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
5 "Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place unless you repent
[/quote]

 

[Kamoroso]

When we are in Christ on the cross, we are justified, for He paid the penalty for our sins, which was death, the second death. When Christ is in us, we are sanctified, for He is the only one who ever perfectly kept the law of God, and the only one who ever will. Both are necessary to salvation. Without the cross we are hopeless. Just so, without the resurrection our faith is in vain.

Salvation is not just about forgiveness. It is about forgiveness, and restoration. We were created in the image of God. Christ came to save us from the condition we had fallen into, and to begin the process of restoration back into the image of God. Thus He lived a life which is our perfect example. He also sends His Holy Spirit to those who ask for it, that they may be restored to the image of God.

Many want forgiveness, but do not want to be restored. Many others want to be restored, but don't want to need forgiveness. Both are necessary. It is not for our choosing. God has set the terms of salvation before us. We will either accept them as they are, or reject the gift which has been set before us.

You will find the concepts of both, justification, and sanctification throughout the scriptures. Those who will deny either, are in danger.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith