Was it The Will of God For the reformation To happen As it Did?

[JesusFan]

or did he actually want the Roman Catholic Church to reform from within, get the grace message and change?

That was His perfect Will, but he worked out the "permitted" will?

Not saying this because I believe in the RC Church, but didn't Jesus pray for us to be "one?"

 

[Winman]

Many believe Revelation 17 is the Catholic church.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

The symbol of the Catholic church is a woman with a golden cup in her hand. Here is a coin the RCC produced.

If you look carefully you can see the golden cup in her right hand.

The RCC is the richest church on earth. The RCC has also persecuted and killed many believers who disagreed with her doctrine. So, this very well could be the RCC in Revelation 17.

Now, you are not going to like what I say next. Notice in verse 5 it says she is the "MOTHER OF HARLOTS". She is a harlot, and her daughters are harlots as well. This means she gives rise or birth to other false churches.

The Lord does not say to reform this harlot church, he tells his people to come out of her.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Notice the Lord says, "my people". So there are genuine believers in this false harlot church. The Lord commands them to come out of her. So, if it is true that the RCC is the woman described in Revelation 17, we are not to reform this harlot church, we are to come out of it.

 

[JesusFan]

Many believe Revelation 17 is the Catholic church.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

The symbol of the Catholic church is a woman with a golden cup in her hand. Here is a coin the RCC produced.

If you look carefully you can see the golden cup in her right hand.

The RCC is the richest church on earth. The RCC has also persecuted and killed many believers who disagreed with her doctrine. So, this very well could be the RCC in Revelation 17.

Now, you are not going to like what I say next. Notice in verse 5 it says she is the "MOTHER OF HARLOTS". She is a harlot, and her daughters are harlots as well. This means she gives rise or birth to other false churches.

The Lord does not say to reform this harlot church, he tells his people to come out of her.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Notice the Lord says, "my people". So there are genuine believers in this false harlot church. The Lord commands them to come out of her. So, if it is true that the RCC is the woman described in Revelation 17, we are not to reform this harlot church, we are to come out of it.

Agree that this COULD be the Church described in revelation...

Just asking COULD the RC Church actually obeyed God back during Luther/Calvin times, adopt Gospel of Grace, instead of the reformation and all of the protestants spliting off it?

And i am a baptist, so no "love lost" for Catholic Church, just asking IF this just might have been what God intended?

 

[Winman]

Agree that this COULD be the Church described in revelation...

Just asking COULD the RC Church actually obeyed God back during Luther/Calvin times, adopt Gospel of Grace, instead of the reformation and all of the protestants spliting off it?

And i am a baptist, so no "love lost" for Catholic Church, just asking IF this just might have been what God intended?

Well, I'm going to tick you off now, but I will tell you what I believe. First I will ask you a question.

What was the primary reason the RCC persecuted other Christians during the Dark Ages?

Was it not over the doctrine of baptizing babies?

What was the doctrine behind baptizing babies?

Was it not Original Sin?

And what other doctrine proceeded from Original Sin?

Total Depravity.

Who holds these doctrines today? Well, practically every Protestant Church and the Baptists as well to a degree, although many churches do not baptize babies or believe in baptismal regeneration.

Did Luther believe in baptismal regeneration?

affirm that Baptism is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. Moreover, He earnestly and solemnly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. No one is to think that it is an optional matter like putting on a red coat. It is of greatest importance that we hold Baptism in high esteem as something splendid and glorious. The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless.... Although Baptism is indeed performed by human hands, yet it is truly God’s own action (1978, pp. 98-99).

Did Calvin believe in baptismal regeneration?

"...God truly performs and effects by baptism what he figures.” [and] “There is a union complementary with the thing figured, lest the sign be empty, because that which the Lord represents in sign he effects at the same time, and executes in us by the power of the Spirit. God works . . . through the sacraments as instruments… The Spirit is the author, the sacrament is truly the instrument used.”

Now, lest you accuse me of getting these quotes from some Arminian site, I got these quotes from a Reformed site, but they can easily be found at many sites on the web.

http://www.reformedliving.org/index...nt&view=category&layout=blog&id=35&Itemid=126

 

[David Lamb]

What was the primary reason the RCC persecuted other Christians during the Dark Ages?

Was it not over the doctrine of baptizing babies?

Which definition of "Dark Ages" would that be, Winman? One of these two (different) meanings I found in a dictionary, or something else?

Dark Ages
a. The period in Europe from the fall of Rome in the fifth century a.d. to the restoration of relative political stability around the year 1000; the early part of the Middle Ages.
b. The entire Middle Ages, especially when viewed as a troubled period marked by the loss of classical learning. No longer in use by historians.
​

But whichever it is, I must say that I had not come across the idea that baptising babies was the main reason for RC persecution of others. William Tyndale (the bible translator) was martyred for "daring" to translate the Scriptures into English.

In the city of Exeter, about 20 miles from where I live, there is a memorial to 2 martyrs, Thomas Benet and Agnes Prest. Thomas was executed in 1531 for refusing to believe in the supremacy of the pope. Agnes was murdered for refusing to believe in transubstantiation.

Hugh Latimer and Nicholas Ridley were martyred for biblical preaching and beliefs. And so the list continues.

I'm not suggesting that Baptists were not persecuted - of course they were. But unless they agreed to the authority of the pope, transubstantiation, and other such RC practices, the would still have faced fierce persecution even had they not been Baptists.

So my answer to your question, "Was it (the primary reason the RCC persecuted other Christians during the Dark Ages) not over the doctrine of baptizing babies?" would have to be no.

 

[Rippon]

Who holds these doctrines today? Well, practically every Protestant Church and the Baptists as well to a degree, although many churches do not baptize babies or believe in baptismal regeneration.

Many Christians believe in Original Sin and Total Depravity and do not hold to Baptismal regeneration.

Even Prebyterians and other non-Baptist Reformed folks,though inconsistent,do not hold to baptismal regeneration.

Did Luther believe in baptismal regeneration?

Well,in Pagan Servitude of the Church he said that :"Baptism justifies nobody."

Did Calvin believe in baptismal regeneration?

No. Here is an excerpt from his commentary on Ephesians 5:26:

"The grace of God is not confined to the sign;so that God may not,if He pleases,bestow it without the aid of the sign. Besides,many receive the sign who are not partakers of grace;for the sign is common to all,to the good and to the bad alike;but the Spirit is bestowed on none but the elect,and the sign,as we have said,has no efficacy without the Spirit."

 

[preachinjesus]

or did he actually want the Roman Catholic Church to reform from within, get the grace message and change?

I don't know.

That was His perfect Will, but he worked out the "permitted" will?

I don't know. Maybe we can't know.

Not saying this because I believe in the RC Church, but didn't Jesus pray for us to be "one?"

Unity of heart and body are ideal. The Reformation was the necessary result of the craven excesses within a corrupt political body that was oppressing its members, the RCC. Take Erasmus' case, he attempted to reform the Church from within. It didn't work. Luther was never anticipating severing the Church but purifying it from, again, within. The more radical Reformers knew it couldn't be fixed from within.

I've thought about this for a while now and am convinced the Reformation is a mixed bag. On the one hand it provided us with a means to purify the Church, regain the Scriptures, and push on to a greater theological and ecclesial growth. Honestly it had to happen. On the other hand it also gave us our situation now, tons of denominations, even more independent churches with no grounds for accountability or mediation. Christianity is a mess, primarily because we aren't unified.

There are pluses and minuses. I'm not convinced the minuses outweigh the pluses though.

I wish we could be one Church again...but don't think it will ever happen. Given mankind's propensity to sinfulness,especially leaders, I don't think it ever should happen.