Havensdad said:
EdSutton said:
I believe if you were to re-check, you would find that the word for save is "
σῶζω" or "sOzO" (to use my 'system' of transliterating) or as others have done, "swzw", which is a word used in Jas. 2:14.
It is a phonetic spelling, Ed, straight from the digital edition of Strong's.
"sode'zo" is actually how the word is "pronounced" (It is not a phonetic spelling.), not how it is "
spelled", which was what I was referring to, to correct a possible misunderstanding from my previous post. And I might suggest you consider re-reading page 5 in the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries, on which is found the "Plan of the Book," a bit more closely, as well.
The root is the same. You are talking semantics. It is speaking of the same thing. "Pistis"(Faith) is what someone has if they are "pisteou" (sic) (faithful, believing).
Before I comment on these four sentences, above, I seem to recall a few statements that you (
Havensdad) have made on this thread, that I will now quote. I do hope all will bear with me, as I highlight some things in them, although any capitalization is not my own, but that of the author of the quote.
What are the FACTS? I see "opinions", but they are based on peoples pet theologies, not on the content of the letter itself.
The FACT is, the letter is addressed to the "Twelve tribes". Why do people say these are "believers"? Because they want to. There is nothing in the letter itself, which would make one think that, except there (sic) own presuppositions. (post # 5)
And so, you eliminate anything that could disprove your own skewed theology. By limiting the writings to addressing ONLY truly saved individuals, instead of the entire assemblies made up of believers and unbelievers, which they are actually written to, you take the teeth out of the difficult passages, and you are able to make yourself feel better, by placing everyone in heaven in your mind. (post # 12)
Well, the OBVIOUS meaning, is that "faith" that does not produce works, does not produce salvation. I believe this is the correct interpretation.
However, if you place artificial limitations on the text, and say "This text is ONLY addressing saved Christians!", it Changes the interpretation. (post # 21)
People who "skew" this verse, have an unbelievably obvious agenda. (post # 27)
Speaking of "pet theologies", "artificial limitations", 'changing interpretations', and "agendae" (not to mention a couple or three more
ad hominems that I noticed), does this include the Greek language, as well, where you accused me of "talking semantics", an allegation that I do deny, FTR.
I am fully aware of what is the 'root' meaning, of "πιστεύω" or "pisteuō" but unfortunately, I believe you are (hopefully, unintentionally) misrepresenting the case with your statements of:
The root is the same. You are talking semantics. It is speaking of the same thing. "Pistis"(Faith) is what someone has if they are "pisteou" (sic) (faithful, believing).
Not true! You would have been effectively correct, were you to have said
"Pistis" (Faith) is what someone has WHEN they "pisteuo" (believe). But I suspect you did not intend to say this latter sentence, at all, you know, "obvious agendae", "pet theologies" and all like that (consistent with your posts), as contrasted to the meanings conveyed by the words themselves.
There is a definite difference, here, between these two above sentences, and in fact, in the briefest of nutshells, this represents the bottom line of difference between "Lordship (or discipleship) Salvation", and "non-Lordship salvation".
To show this let us first look at the various Greek words numbered 3982 and from 4100 - 4104. The "root" word of this group is "
πείθω" ("peithō") (3982). The entry is as follows: (although I do not include how the KJV, RV or ASV render the word, preferring to concentrate on the actual meaning, as given by Dr. Strong.): "
a primary verb;
to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy,
to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively,
to assent (to evidence or authority),
to rely (by inward certainty): "
From this word we get the first 'derived word' (# 4102) - the feminine
noun of "
πίστις" ("pistis"): " from
πείθω (peitho)
3982;
persuasion, i.e. credence;
moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher),
especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: "
And from "pistis" we then get another
verb, #4100 - "
πιστεύω" ("pisteuō") "from
πίστις (pistis)
4102;
to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e.
credit; by implication,
to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): "
The first word, is the key word, simply because the others proceed from it. Yet its definition seems to be at variance with the Lordship Salvation view.
One of the 'Straw men' erected by the advocates of Lordship Salvation is that the adherents of "free grace" are preaching "easy believism" by suggesting that "mental assent" is all that is 'necessary' for salvation. Did you happen to notice the definition of 'peitho' is "
convince," "
pacify," "
assent," and "
rely"? This is both the Biblical and linguistic "starting point".
The second "pile of straw" that is erected, is that "while we are saved by 'grace alone' (or 'believing alone', or 'faith alone', kinda' depending on who is wording this), this 'faith is never alone'." (I suggest this should be run by Paul, Abraham, and David, among others, as per Rom. 4:1-8, and Tit. 3:5, among other Scritures, regarding justification before God, and righteousness being imputed apart from any works, on our part.)
A third would be the addition of 'qualifiers' that are completely foreign to Scripture, and the language, such as "genuine faith" or "'really' and/or 'truly' believe". None of the above words either need or demand any such as these 'lingual' additions (or 'clarifications')
, which are subtle attempts to 'read theology' into the actual words and texts, IMO. There are indeed more straw men I could list, but these should suffice to show the point.
There are two additional related (although much less frequently used) words, namely # 4103 "
πιστός" ("pistos"), an adjective: from πείθω - peitho
3982; objectively, trustworthy; subjectively, trustful:
and # 4104, the verb "
πιστόω" ("pistoō"): from πιστός - pistos
4103; to assure:
May I repeat this for all BB readers. For the one who advocates "Lordship Salvation", such as
Havensdad to whom I am replying, and whose exact quote this is (with one spelling correction),
"Pistis" (Faith) is what someone has if they are "pisteuō" (faithful, believing)." (My emphasis.) For the Lordship salvation adherent, in the final analysis,
faith (hence salvation) is the result of faithfulness. It is about performance, or is at least "peformance qualified", as the quote well shows.
However, the Biblical language simply does not and will not support this "presupposition", hence according to the language, and for the advocates of "non-Lordship Salvation", such as me-
EdSutton,
"Pistis" (Faith) is what someone has WHEN they "pisteuō" (believe). For the non-Lordship salvation adherent,
faithfulness is the result of faith, or salvation.
Huge difference!
Ed
