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DeafPosttrib said:SFC,
Oh please.....
I ask you of Judas as human being, not animals. Animals have no soul, you know that.
Yes, Judas was saved at the first place, because he was 'called', but later afterward he fall by betryal Christ, he died and go to hell.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Well, I meant his steadfastness in the ministry. The devil has ministers the same as God and they do not have horns either.The Bible tells us what Judas fell from, "to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place" (Acts 1:25). I didn't make it up. This is what the Bible says. Judas fell from his ministry and apostleship.__________________
Hope of Glory said:Let's confuse the issue by applying Scripture:
John 12:4 “Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot…”
To be a disciple of Christ you must be saved; you must in God's family. A disciple is called out from among the saved. Not every child of God is a disciple. A disciple is not happy with just being saved; he desires to go on further knowing the Lord's will for his life. He is "growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ". He continues in the words of Christ and is getting to know the truth which sets him free from the power of sin. A disciple has a hunger to obey the commandments of Jesus Christ. His level of commitment is higher than that of a normal saved person who attends church only on Sundays, if at all.
Judas Iscariot was a disciple! That is what the Bible says!
But, discipleship is conditional, and it's based on obedience.
Luke 14:26-27: If any [saved] man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Some people like to use this passage to show how one can get saved. That's silly! Jesus was speaking to His disciples. He had placed conditions on discipleship. This is not how a person gets born into the family. To be a disciple one must spend time with the Lord. Discipleship will cost you your time, your own desires, your own pursuits, and it might even cost you your family relationships.
The word "hate," in Luke 14:26, is a term that means preference. It doesn't mean that we hate our family with bitter animosity, but rather, it means we place our allegiance to Christ and His will over family relationships. He has the first place in our lives. That is being a disciple. Judas was a disciple. He obeyed this passage. He was a follower of Jesus Christ. Therefore, he was a saved man. He was a Jew that believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and he also believed that Jesus was the Christ.
To get born into the family does not cost us anything. To get born into the family, all you do is believe.
Acts 16:30-31: “…Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
You can know that you are in the family. It is not something we hope for; it's an absolute assurance which is based on the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
Judas was not only a disciple of Jesus Christ but he was chosen by the Lord, out of all his disciples, to fulfill a unique ministry as one of the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve!
Luke 6:13-16: And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
John 6:71: He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
The ministry of the twelve apostles was unique and different from our ministry today.They were taught directly by Jesus Christ and they followed Him around the land of Israel. Also, in 2 Corinthians 12:12, they were given special power and authority to perform signs, wonders, and miracles in order to give them credibility that God was with them, and that Jesus was truly the Christ. Judas was part of this elect group of men. Peter says in Acts 1:17 that "For he was numbered with us and had obtained part of this ministry."
The Lord Jesus Christ called Judas His friend.
Matthew 26:50: And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
In the Psalms there is a prophesy about Judas. It'sa double reference. It also refers to Ahithophel who was one of King David's closest counselors in his kingdom. He ended up betraying David though he was his friend.
Psalm 41:9: Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
The Lord quoted this Psalm in John 13:18 as being fulfilled through Judas: "I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.”
To eat bread with the King was an honor that was only given to those who were very close to him. Psalm 55 is a prophesy about Judas, and it tells us that Judas was not the Lord's enemy!
Psalm 55:12-14: For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
The twelve had a close relationship with the Lord. It was a more intimate fellowship than what all the multitudes that followed Jesus had with him. Jesus ministered to the multitudes but he taught and showed things to the twelve that the multitudes did not see or hear.
Judas was very close to the Lord.
Brother Bob said:Well, I meant his steadfastness in the ministery. The devil has ministers the same as God and they do not have horns either.
One thing I wonder about though, "his own place". Seems to be saying something. IMO
Are the disciples of Mohammed saved? The word "disciple" simply means "follower." As Muslims are followers of Mohammed, the disciples of Christ "followed" Christ. They were his followers.Hope of Glory said:Let's confuse the issue by applying Scripture:
John 12:4 “Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot…”
To be a disciple of Christ you must be saved; you must in God's family.
Well, I have known several ministers who turned out to not even be saved. We thought they were really "good" ministers too, then found out they were having more fun with the women than they should of had. We do not believe God was keeping them in the ministry, but they were keeping themselves, by nature. Studying by nature, preaching by nature on their own.2. What do you mean by "steadfastness in the ministry"?
Brother Bob said:Well, I have known several ministers who turned out to not even be saved. We thought they were really "good" ministers too, then found out they were having more fun with the women than they should of had. We do not believe God was keeping them in the ministry, but they were keeping themselves, by nature. Studying by nature, preaching by nature on their own.
Are the disciples of Mohammed disciples of Christ?DHK said:Are the disciples of Mohammed saved?
You have no Scripture to back that up with; you didn't provide any. It is simply opinion. There is no difference between a disciple of Christ and a disciple of Mohammed except in the object of their faith or the leader in which they follow. The word disciple simply means "follower." A person can be a follower of anyone. It does not guarantee that you are saved, not even if you are discipled. Jesus had many that followed him. But because he knew the hearts of all men, he did not commit himself to them.Hope of Glory said:A A disciple of Jesus Christ is saved!
Period.
No matter how much you say, "No he isn't!" and twist the Scriptures.
StandingfirminChrist: Disciple means follower, not saved.
HP: So you don’t have to be discipled to be a disciple? I wonder if you have to follow to be a follower? Are you saying that all the five thousand that followed Christ were disciples as well?DHK: The word disciple simply means "follower." A person can be a follower of anyone. It does not guarantee that you are saved, not even if you are discipled.
HP: Where do you read that God did not give Jesus Judas? How can you say that Christ 'never' prayed for Judas to be kept? Do we hold in our hands the transcript of every prayer Jesus prayed?TCGreek: 2. Jesus never prayed for Judas to be kept (John 17:9, 12; 6:37, 39).
Heavenly Pilgrim said:HP: So you don’t have to be discipled to be a disciple? I wonder if you have to follow to be a follower? Are you saying that all the five thousand that followed Christ were disciples as well?
I think that we need to rethink what it means to be a disciple of Christ.