Was Judas saved?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: The Scripture does not say Judas became a devil. It says:
Quote:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (John 6:70)


When you say he became a devil, you are dismissing the truth.

HP: If I say that SFIC 'IS' a believer, does that mean I am saying that SFIC 'was' a believer from the beginning?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HP: If I say that SFIC 'IS' a believer, does that mean I am saying that SFIC 'was' a believer from the beginning?

Yer not Christ now, are ya? Christ knew from the beginning.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: Yer not Christ now, are ya? Christ knew from the beginning.

HP: You are avoiding the question. Try again.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, if you believe that Judas was a devil from the beginning, do you have a reference for your belief?

It's probably going to be hard to convince you because you do not believe OSAS as I do.
But it was prophesied in Psalms:

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me.

Judas was chosen for this very purpose, to betray Christ and lead Him to crucifixion.

Christ knew who would betray Him.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.



hn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

It seems clear to me that Judas was not saved from the beginning or he would have remained saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: It's probably going to be hard to convince you because you do not believe OSAS as I do.

HP: I believe your have hit on the point some have been making from the beginning. The only way to find support for the belief that Judas never had a right relationship with Christ is just as you say, you have to hold OSAS as a presupposition and then approach Scripture always using that believe as the lens with which you view others issues through. I believe that is a flawed approach.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me.

HP: If this is in fact a prophesy concerning Judas, it would show two things for starters. If Judas was a devil from the beginning, Jesus was a friend of the devil. It would also show that Jesus trusted the devil as well. Are you certain this is a proof text you desire to use?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: If this is in fact a prophesy concerning Judas, it would show two things for starters. If Judas was a devil from the beginning, Jesus was a friend of the devil. It would also show that Jesus trusted the devil as well. Are you certain this is a proof text you desire to use?

First of all, Judas wasn't THE devil. He was a servant of the devil.

Remember Jesus speaking to the Pharisees?
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Here's another point:

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Compare it to this verse:

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Judas was not "kept" because he never belonged to Christ in the first place.


Have you never trusted someone who betrayed you? In order to BE betrayed, you have to trust your betrayer.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy, could have a devil been an old familiar friend of Jesus, and could have He trusted him if he was a devil?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hint: Am 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, could have a devil been an old familiar friend of Jesus, and could have He trusted him if he was a devil?

Since Jesus was 100% man as well as 100% God, I would say yes, He would trust someone who appeared to be His friend. Do you think Jesus knew Judas was stealing money from the money box? Of course He did, just like He knew that Judas would betray Him, but the prophecy still says that He was betrayed by a friend.
We can't argue the truth of scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

Hint: Am 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

Jesus knew his betrayer. That cannot be denied. This verse does not apply to our Lord walking with Judas. Judas was a thief, which also makes him a liar, and he was a betrayer.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: What is that Scripture about not judging? Why the personal comments? TCGreek, are you above prayer? I sure am not. How about you Amy? How do your comments or those of TCG add anything of value to a debate or discussion when they degenerate into personal attacks? If you two were really concerned, why would you not as disciples of Christ both take the Scriptural mandate to first go to him in private?

1. HP, if those comments that were made about you are accurate, then as a fellow believer, I must pray from you.

2. Tell me, what is judgmental about that?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Before the supper Jesus had already remarked, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" (John 6:70).

The word is an adjective, meaning slanderous, but is almost invariably used in the New Testament as a noun, and with the definite article. Don't confuse "devil" with "demon", either.

1 Timothy 3:11 tells us that female deacons (or wives of deacons, depending upon how you read it) are not to be she-devils. Don't be slanderous. Don't be accusers.

 

[Hope of Glory]

And here is the reason the OSAS proponents CANNOT admit that Judas was a true apostle of Christ, because they know that their belief about OSAS will crumble before their very eyes.

I am a proponent of OSAS and I have shown from Scriptures that Judas was undeniably saved, unless you want to tell God what he really meant to say.

However, those who hold to a works-based spiritual salvation such as SFIC cannot believe that he was ever saved, based on his works, so you are correct that some cannot justify the two.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No, you have not shown from Scripture that Judas was only undeniably saved. You have only inserted your beliefs that Judas was saved contrary to what the Scriptures actually teach.

 

[TCGreek]

The word is an adjective, meaning slanderous, but is almost invariably used in the New Testament as a noun, and with the definite article. Don't confuse "devil" with "demon", either.

1. Your point is taken, but I must add that the adjective here is predicative and makes an assertion about the head noun, Judas in this case. He is demonic.

1 Timothy 3:11 tells us that female deacons (or wives of deacons, depending upon how you read it) are not to be she-devils. Don't be slanderous. Don't be accusers.

2. Though the construction is different than John 6:70, I must agree with you.

 

[Hope of Glory]

He is demonic.

Why do you equate "slanderous" with "demonic"?

 

[TCGreek]

Why do you equate "slanderous" with "demonic"?

1. I see your point and I think "slanderous" is the better choice.

2. Because demons or demonic is from daimonion, but I must get behind the versions translation of diabolos as "a demon" at John 6:70, unless they saw it as a synonym, which is not unlikely.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGreek: 1. HP, if those comments that were made about you are accurate, then as a fellow believer, I must pray from you.

2. Tell me, what is judgmental about that?

HP: I have shared my thoughts, and have moved on back to the debate of the OP. Hope you understand.

 

[Iamodd4God]

I am a proponent of OSAS and I have shown from Scriptures that Judas was undeniably saved, unless you want to tell God what he really meant to say.

However, those who hold to a works-based spiritual salvation such as SFIC cannot believe that he was ever saved, based on his works, so you are correct that some cannot justify the two.

Okay, so since Judas was saved do you believe he is in paradise? If not, then how can you believe OSAS?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken