Was Judas saved?

[Iamodd4God]

Jesus knew his betrayer. That cannot be denied. This verse does not apply to our Lord walking with Judas. Judas was a thief, which also makes him a liar, and he was a betrayer.

Can you prove that Judas was always a thief, always a liar, always a betrayer? If you can then do so.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

Yer not Christ now, are ya? Christ knew from the beginning.

Way to dodge his question SFIC. Why don't you answer?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Amy, could have a devil been an old familiar friend of Jesus, and could have He trusted him if he was a devil?

Since Jesus was 100% man as well as 100% God, I would say yes, He would trust someone who appeared to be His friend. Do you think Jesus knew Judas was stealing money from the money box? Of course He did, just like He knew that Judas would betray Him, but the prophecy still says that He was betrayed by a friend.
We can't argue the truth of scripture.

HP: I fully understand that Jesus was God and man. I understand as God how He could know the beginning from the end. Just the same, you, and others, seem to be saying that because Jesus knows the beginning from the end, then Judas must have been what he was from the beginning. That is sheer fatalism Amy.

Are you who you are now that way because God knew you as such from the beginning? Certainly God knew the choices you would make, but if you were like me you were lost in your trespasses and sins in the beginning, and now are one with Christ through His gift of salvation.

You are trying to reason from a perspective you are assuming you understand, but is in reality lies beyond the capabilities of us all to comprehend, i.e. God’s perspective. Try reasoning as the man and women we are Amy, with the knowledge God gives to us. If you start from the notion that God knows everything from the beginning, which is true, it fails to take in another truth i.e., God creates man with the abilities to make moral choices, and our standing as evil or righteous is due, not to God’s knowledge of them before we commit them, but due to our willing disobedience to a known commandment of God. If Judas was who he was from the beginning, God is to blame for He made Judas. Just because God knows the beginning from the end in no way necessitates the outcome of moral agents. To think otherwise will land you without fail in the trap of deterministic fatalism.

If you desire to believe Scripture, and you believe the verse in Psalms is a reference to Judas, ( as I do) Jesus held him as a trusted friend. That clearly allows for the possibility that indeed Judas was at one time a loyal and trusted follower and friend. If in fact Judas was a devil from the beginning, trust would have been impossible for one that knew the beginning from the end, making friendship with a devil enmity towards Himself as God, now wouldn’t it have?

Because one is said to be something today, is no proof at all that they have been that way from the beginning. Because God knows the beginning from the end does not necessitate the outcome. Because God knows our final state, does not mean that you and I have had nothing to do with our standing before the Lord. The notion that all is determined, or that everything that now is has always been due to the fact that God in His Omniscience knew from the beginning the outcome due to the foreknowledge of God, is the bedrock of pure fatalistic determination. You seem to be following that misguided notion in your views concerning Judas.

“All ye like sheep ‘have gone’ astray, and ‘have turned’ everyone to his own way.” Note it does not say that because God foreknows the outcome from before the beginning, that all is predetermined and everything to be concluded that because one now ‘is,’ it has been that way from the beginning.

1Co 6:11 And such 'were' some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Note the change of what we were and what we are today, in spite of God knowing the beginning from the end. If such is the truth concerning us, it certainly could have been said of Judas, he 'was' a trusted friend and follower of Christ, but turned from that steadfastness and was lost in the end.

 

[Iamodd4God]

It's probably going to be hard to convince you because you do not believe OSAS as I do.
But it was prophesied in Psalms:

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me.

Judas was chosen for this very purpose, to betray Christ and lead Him to crucifixion.

Christ knew who would betray Him.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.



hn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

It seems clear to me that Judas was not saved from the beginning or he would have remained saved.

The prophesies of "who" would betray Jesus never specifically named the betrayer. It only referred to the one who would betray Jesus as being a familiar friend.

In Acts 1 it is CLEARLY shown that Judas was indeed an APOSTLE that APOSTATIZED. He FELL from HIS BISHOPRIC. Jesus would not have sent Judas to PREACH if Judas at the time was not BLAMELESS.

But you as a OSAS proponent cannot admit to these as it will destroy your OSAS doctrine. NEWSFLASH, once a person becomes saved he or she can turn away from God. The angels in heaven can turn away from God, what makes you think we as humans cannot? Oh, Jesus right? Jesus keeps us from turning away from God. Do you tell lies Amy? If so, why is it that Jesus allows you turn away from God to do so? Or is it possible to sin without turning away from God? If so then why did Jesus have to die, God could have overlooked sin just as easily with the shedding of blood of the bulls and goats.

Whether you realize it or not, OSAS has turned Jesus into a license to sin. I know you will deny this, but the facts are the facts. Here is the proof...

When you tell a lie you deliberately do so. Revelation 21:8 tells us that "ALL" liars will have their part in the lake of fire. So if God will overlook your sins you deliberately commit, but will condemn others for their sins they deliberately commit; why will that be?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I believe it was Algernon Sidney that said something close to the following. True fortitude of knowledge consist is not allowing the things we cannot understand to confuse the things we with certainty know.

This holds true in the discussion as well. When we start to reason from the foreknowledge of God, which lies beyond our abilities to comprehend, we are on the road to deterministic fatalistic error.

One thing we know with certainty is that God holds man accountable for our actions, and praises and blames us for our formed intents. We should reason, as in the case of Judas, from that which we know with certainty, that God blamed him for his actions and as such he was a free moral agent, the responsible agent for his formed intents and subsequent actions, and as such Judas was not what he became from the beginning of necessity due to God’s foreknowledge. Judas willingly chose at some point and time in his life to be the devil Scripture affirms he became. God does not create devils, they become devils by their formed intents of selfishness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

IAOFG: When you tell a lie you deliberately do so. Revelation 21:8 tells us that "ALL" liars will have their part in the lake of fire. So if God will overlook your sins you deliberately commit, but will condemn others for their sins they deliberately commit; why will that be?

HP: Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he 'WAS' sanctified, an unholy thing, and 'hath done' despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Iamodd4God]

Ken has revealed himself in the public forums, why should it be dealt with privately?

Can you prove me wrong with Scripture?

I say that only those who obey the commandments will have the right to the tree of life. The reason I say that is because that is what the Bible says...

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I say that Christians DO NOT sin. The reason I say that is because that is what the Bible says...

1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

I say that we are to obey the commandments. The reason I say that is because that is what the Bible says...

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Can you prove me wrong in any of these matters SFIC or Amy or anyone else?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

HP: Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he 'WAS' sanctified, an unholy thing, and 'hath done' despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Exactly! OSAS doesn't believe that is the case though. They believe the same lie Eve bought in the garden "Ye shall not surely die".

Many people believe that what sets the believing "sinner" apart from the non-believing sinner is that the believing sinner does not habitually commit sin, and feels sorry for what they did. Boy are these people in for a rude awakening when the judgment comes.

I know of non-believers who hates what they do (i.e. drugs, drunkeness etc.) that doesn't mean they repented of what they do. So how is it any different for the believers? If all they do is feel sorry for doing these things, but they don't stop that isn't repentance.

I wonder if Amy or SFIC believes that they had to become habitual sinners BEFORE they needed to be saved? If not, then what on earth makes habitual sin an issue after salvation? It doesn't. Jesus didn't tell the adulterous woman to go do "THAT" sin no more, or to go and "TRY" to sin no more or to go and sin less. He told her to go and SIN NO MORE.

God expects complete obedience, nothing less. Jesus died for sins committed, not sins to be committed willfully. People doesn't like what Hebrews 6:4-6 or Hebrews 10:26-29 says, but they say what they say and they mean what they mean.

So does 2Timothy 4:3-4, which describes people like Amy and SFIC and many others. They reject Scripture and cling to doctrines of devil's. They claim to be following the Scriptures but they're not. In the end they will learn that God will not allow sinners into heaven the hard way unless they truly repent and live according to God's Word.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[J. Jump]

But you as a OSAS proponent cannot admit to these as it will destroy your OSAS doctrine. OSAS doesn't believe that is the case though. They believe the same lie Eve bought in the garden "Ye shall not surely die".

Ken you are lumping "all" people that hold to eternal security into the same pile and that is simply not true.

I for one hold that Judas was in fact saved and remained saved and still is saved as far as everlasting life is concerned. So don't lump everyone into the same pile .

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Way to dodge his question SFIC. Why don't you answer?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

Some Foolish questions deserve no answer.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HP: Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he 'WAS' sanctified, an unholy thing, and 'hath done' despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This verse is not dealing with a person who is saved. It is dealing with one who has heard the Gospel, knew about the shed blood and rejected it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Can you prove me wrong with Scripture?

I say that only those who obey the commandments will have the right to the tree of life. The reason I say that is because that is what the Bible says...

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I say that Christians DO NOT sin. The reason I say that is because that is what the Bible says...

1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

I say that we are to obey the commandments. The reason I say that is because that is what the Bible says...

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Can you prove me wrong in any of these matters SFIC or Amy or anyone else?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

You have been proven wrong with Scripture time and again. You are just too stubborn to admit it.

You say Christians do not sin, yet Paul said he was the Chief of Sinners. Read Romans 7 and you will find Paul sinned. John wrote that if we sin we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the Righteous.

Christians do sin. You proved it by lying saying they do not.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Ken you are lumping "all" people that hold to eternal security into the same pile and that is simply not true.

I for one hold that Judas was in fact saved and remained saved and still is saved as far as everlasting life is concerned. So don't lump everyone into the same pile .

Judas was not saved.

 

[ccrobinson]

I say that Christians DO NOT sin. The reason I say that is because that is what the Bible says...

Iamodd4god, do you sin?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Since Paul said 'The evil that I would not, that I do', and Paul was saved, I would say Christians do sin. They do not habitually sin though. They do not commit the same sins day in and day out.

 

[Amy.G]

HP, Ken,
Did you even read my posts?


Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas was not "kept" by Christ. Do you deny that?

Jesus does not cast away those that come to Him and those that come to Him have been given Him by the Father.

If Judas WAS given to Christ by the Father and IF Christ does NOT cast those away (but KEEPS them), then the fact the Jesus did NOT "keep" Judas means that Judas did NOT belong to Christ in the first place.

"Did not belong to Christ" means NOT saved. There were plenty that followed Him around for awhile, but that does NOT make them saved. "They went out from us because they were NOT of us".

Those who belong to Christ are His sheep. They hear His voice and follow Him. He "keeps" them. If one wanders off, He goes after it and brings it home, but there is NO scripture that says that the Shepherd lets HIS sheep keep wandering away until it walks off a cliff and dies.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HP, Ken,
Did you even read my posts?


Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas was not "kept" by Christ. Do you deny that?

Jesus does not cast away those that come to Him and those that come to Him have been given Him by the Father.

If Judas WAS given to Christ by the Father and IF Christ does NOT cast those away (but KEEPS them), then the fact the Jesus did NOT "keep" Judas means that Judas did NOT belong to Christ in the first place.

"Did not belong to Christ" means NOT saved. There were plenty that followed Him around for awhile, but that does NOT make them saved. "They went out from us because they were NOT of us".

Those who belong to Christ are His sheep. They hear His voice and follow Him. He "keeps" them. If one wanders off, He goes after it and brings it home, but there is NO scripture that says that the Shepherd lets HIS sheep keep wandering away until it walks off a cliff and dies.

Amy,

One can also look at the 'all that thou hast given me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition' in this light:

Jesus kept even Judas while he was an Apostle up until the Last Supper. He even kept the son of perdition. He did not keep him in the sense of salvation, but in that he kept him with him up to the point of betrayal.

All you have given me I have kept and the only one that is lost is Judas (paraphrase)

 

[Amy.G]

Amy,

One can also look at the 'all that thou hast given me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition' in this light:

Jesus kept even Judas while he was an Apostle up until the Last Supper. He even kept the son of perdition. He did not keep him in the sense of salvation, but in that he kept him with him up to the point of betrayal.

All you have given me I have kept and the only one that is lost is Judas (paraphrase)

Yes, I agree. This was so that scripture would be fulfilled. Jesus said Judas was lost. He was not "kept" as the other 11 were. Not that he slipped out of the Savior's hand, but that he never belonged to Christ (in the salvic sense) in the first place.

 

[Hope of Glory]

1. I see your point and I think "slanderous" is the better choice.

2. Because demons or demonic is from daimonion, but I must get behind the versions translation of diabolos as "a demon" at John 6:70, unless they saw it as a synonym, which is not unlikely.

Are there any manuscripts that have "demon" there? Are there any translations that have "demon" there? (I'm not aware of any, but I don't know.)

I think the problem is that many people have come to equate "demon" with "devil" probably due to multiple factors that includes (but is not limited to) the KJV mistranslating some of them, Catholocism, and "the devil" being Satan with demons that follow him. It's similar to people who equate "hell" with "lake of fire". The language doesn't allow it, and there's no scriptural evidence for it, but traditions of men are strong.

So, if he's a slanderer, or an adversary, or an accuser, would that automatically preclude him from being a spiritually saved individual?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Okay, so since Judas was saved do you believe he is in paradise? If not, then how can you believe OSAS?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

What is "paradise"?