Was Judas saved?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Cutter: So the blood of Christ plays no role in our atonement and forgiveness of sin?

HP: "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins.” Those in the OT looked by faith towards that being accomplished, and those in the NT look in retrospect to the atonement.

Cutter: Jesus said, "It is finished," when He died on the cross. How can something be complete, such as salvation, when the work was not yet finished?

HP: The atonement was made and finished at the cross, so far as the law and its penalty is concerned. May I suggest an online book that is very good on the subject of the Atonement? It is “The Atonement” by Albert Barnes.

Cutter: Jesus also said, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." You think maybe He wanted to present Himself to the Father as the perfect sacrifice on behalf of sin that was needed for salvation?

HP: I am not certain exactly why He said that, but He did none the less. I do not profess to know all the ramifications as to why He desired it that way.

 

[Cutter]

HP: "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins.” Those in the OT looked by faith towards that being accomplished, and those in the NT look in retrospect to the atonement.

I will accept this, because of your statement, also because the Bibles says, " the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

So with this statement you are suggesting that Judas was an OT Saint. Am I correct in that assumption?

 

[Hope of Glory]

How can someone be saved apart from the shed blood of Christ.

Was his blood shed so that we might be saved?

Who was the blood shed for?

Who can be saved?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Good morning.

I have a good thought on word, 'disciple'.

You know that I disagree with your conclusions on whether spiritual salvation can be lost or not, but your thoughts on the meaning of "disciple" are good.

At least you can see that these warnings are given to saved people.

We just have a difference of what the results are.

A disciple is much, much more than someone who stands idly by. It is someone who embraces the teachings of the one to whom he is a disciple. (And no, don't go into demagoguery and say, "So, you say a disciple of Mohammed is saved?") A disciple of Jesus is saved. Period. He embraces the teachings of Jesus.

A disciple is one who is constantly associated with someone who has a pedagogical reputation or a particular set of views. It's an adherent.

So, unless you can lose your spiritual salvation, Judas was saved when he died. He was a disciple. Much more than that, he was elect from among the disciples of Jesus and was named an apostle.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You know that I disagree with your conclusions on whether spiritual salvation can be lost or not, but your thoughts on the meaning of "disciple" are good.

At least you can see that these warnings are given to saved people.

We just have a difference of what the results are.

A disciple is much, much more than someone who stands idly by. It is someone who embraces the teachings of the one to whom he is a disciple. (And no, don't go into demagoguery and say, "So, you say a disciple of Mohammed is saved?") A disciple of Jesus is saved. Period. He embraces the teachings of Jesus.

A disciple is one who is constantly associated with someone who has a pedagogical reputation or a particular set of views. It's an adherent.

So, unless you can lose your spiritual salvation, Judas was saved when he died. He was a disciple. Much more than that, he was elect from among the disciples of Jesus and was named an apostle.

Judas was never saved to begin with, he cannot have been saved when he died

 

[Hope of Glory]

Judas was never saved to begin with, he cannot have been saved when he died

So, you're saying that he wasn't really a disciple and God accidentally forgot to put that in the Bible?

Good thing you're here to correct God with your spiritual glasses.

Maybe God can get it right next time.

However, my KJV Bible tells me that he was a disciple, my NASB tells me he was a disciple, my NA27 tells me he was a disciple, the WH, TR, CLV, REV, and every translation that I own tells me he was a diciple.

The Bible vs The Gospel According to SFIC...

hmm...

I think I'll stick with the Bible.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Cutter: So with this statement you are suggesting that Judas was an OT Saint. Am I correct in that assumption?

HP: I do not know if those that walked with the Lord were considered as OT saints or not. Jesus was actively preaching that He was the fulfillment of every type and shadow. He was preaching the new covenant, not the old, so I still do not know how to classify those saved during His ministry.

I also do not make the claim that Judas was a saint, or that he was saved. I would lean towards that position, but to me Scripture does not give us insight to make a definitive answer. I do see it as good possibility that he was saved for a time early on when Christ chose him and gave him an active part in the ministry and the power to carry out the duties of being a disciple. I see nothing that would suggest that that ‘possibility,’ the ‘possibility’ of having a right relationship but falling from it, in Scripture was not the case. I do find statements such as the OT prophesies concerning him that would indicate to me that indeed he was at least at one time in a right relationship with Christ. We shall all soon see.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: Judas was never saved to begin with, he cannot have been saved when he died

HP: Where is the evidence? So far you have produced no credible evidence at all. Pounding on the pulpit does little to support your claims.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HP: Where is the evidence? So far you have produced no credible evidence at all. Pounding on the pulpit does little to support your claims.

Having eyes to see, ye see not.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

DHK said in the early hours of the morning that those proponents of the heretical teachings ME do not have long on this board.

You can accuse us all you want to, but DHK's promise will come to fruition as he said.

Your heretical teachings and mocking of those who hold to the truths of Scripture reveal your true intent on this board.

And it isn't to further the gospel of the kingdom.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: DHK said in the early hours of the morning that those proponents of the heretical teachings ME do not have long on this board.

HP:I missed what he said. I wonder what he means by what you term as the ‘heretical teachings of ME?’

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HP:I missed what he said. I wonder what he means what you term as the ‘heretical teachings of ME?’

The teachings that a saved Child of God will find himself or herself cast into outer darkness or hell. Those are the heretical doctrines of ME.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: The teachings that a saved Child of God will find himself or herself cast into outer darkness or hell. Those are the heretical doctrines of ME.

HP: Pardon my lack of connection here, but what does 'ME' stand for?

 

[TCGreek]

How can someone be saved apart from the shed blood of Christ. The following scriptures occurred before the crucifixion.

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;.

His apostleship and ministry were by appointment not because he was saved.
He fell from these positions.

Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Also look at the last verse where Matthias is listed as being numbered with the twelve. If you believe scripture then he became part of 12 apostles. In the following verse there is no mention of 13 apostles.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So if Matthias became the 12th apostle, Judas was excluded and as the Bible states, he went to his own place. Sure wasn't heaven.

1. Cutter, your major premise goes against the meaning of the yearly atonement commanded by God under the OT.

2. All the sins committed under OT, once mediated by the blood of animals, were actually pointing to the ultimate blood sacrifice, Jesus Christ (Rom 3:21-26).

3. If your major premise stands then no one before the cross was covered by the blood of Christ. This is totally against Scripture.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Millenial Exclusion
Mercy Eliminated

Take your pick

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: Millenial Exclusion
Mercy Eliminated

HP: Well, I am in good company then. Jesus never preached that there would ever be a literal thousand year period on this earth that I can recall, and He certainly warned all that mercy, as in salvation being offered to those that obey not the truth, will indeed come to an end. Today is the day of salvation. We have no guarantee of another.

 

[Hope of Glory]

HP: Pardon my lack of connection here, but what does 'ME' stand for?

It's his way to try to be insulting. He loves to call people names, question their salvation, and call them heretic, with little, if any accountability.

You see the warnings to saved people in the Scriptures. I see the warnings to saved people in Scriptures.

If I'm not mistaken, you apply them to losing your spiritual salvation.

I think the Scriptures show that they apply to the coming Kingdom. Saved people are warned about being cast into outer darkness. Saved people are warned about gehenna. I don't think that's synonymous with the lake of fire, and if it is, then there's a contradiction in Scriptures.

However, there are those such as SFIC who think that Christians are not accountable for their behavior; they get a free ride, no matter what they do, but then try to backload works onto being born from above by saying that a saved person will not commit certain sins. (However, he won't specify the magic level at which a person works determines whether or not he's saved.)

So, since he doesn't think that a saved person is accountable for his actions, but sees OSAS, his favorite things to do is to yell "heretic!" and "no it isn't!" frequently, and pound on the virtual podium, but you'll notice an extreme lack of Scripture, and he will refuse to respond to Scripture that refutes him, other than shouting "heretic!" and "no it isn't!"

 

[Cutter]

1. Cutter, your major premise goes against the meaning of the yearly atonement commanded by God under the OT.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2. All the sins committed under OT, once mediated by the blood of animals, were actually pointing to the ultimate blood sacrifice, Jesus Christ (Rom 3:21-26).

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

3. If your major premise stands then no one before the cross was covered by the blood of Christ. This is totally against Scripture.

Post 182;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins.” Those in the OT looked by faith towards that being accomplished, and those in the NT look in retrospect to the atonement.

I will accept this, because of your statement, also because the Bibles says, " the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

 

[TCGreek]

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.



Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.



Post 182;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

What then was the purpose of the blood sacrifices? What was the purpose of Yom Kippur?

 

[DHK]

It's his way to try to be insulting. He loves to call people names, question their salvation, and call them heretic, with little, if any accountability.

You see the warnings to saved people in the Scriptures. I see the warnings to saved people in Scriptures.

If I'm not mistaken, you apply them to losing your spiritual salvation.

I think the Scriptures show that they apply to the coming Kingdom. Saved people are warned about being cast into outer darkness. Saved people are warned about gehenna. I don't think that's synonymous with the lake of fire, and if it is, then there's a contradiction in Scriptures.

However, there are those such as SFIC who think that Christians are not accountable for their behavior; they get a free ride, no matter what they do, but then try to backload works onto being born from above by saying that a saved person will not commit certain sins. (However, he won't specify the magic level at which a person works determines whether or not he's saved.)

Since HOG bifurcates between "born again" and "salvation" (believing on Christ or being saved), he believes in two salvations. The ultimate end is that he believes that one has to work for his salvation, as he has said many times that one cannot enter the kingdom of God without doing something in order to enter it. He has also said one must do something in order to be born again. That is all works salvation, though he won't admit it.

Since a saved person, in his opinion isn't automatically born again into the Kngdom, if he doesn't do good while on this earth he may suffer a thousand years of torment in a "Baptist Purgatory" during the Millennial Kingdom brought upon him by the chastisement that he will receive at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Notice how this contradicts the Scripture where this event is reserved for rewards based on the works of a believer and has nothing to do with chastisement on account of sin. That is a totally unbiblical concept. All chastisement ends at earth. God has not appointed the believer to wrath.

In essence the proponents of such doctrines (whether they admit it or not):
--deny the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.
--believe in a works salvation.
--deny the doctrine of eternal life for the believer
--believe in an unbilblical torment of the believer after ther resurrection.

There are others also. This is heresy. For a believer to be excluded from the Millennial Kingdom when his sins are already covered by the blood is absolute nonsense. It contradicts all that Christ did on the cross--the very nature of the atonement.