Was Man Created Mortal?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

As a list there have been many discussions on man. Topics have abounded on the proposed separation of spirit, soul and body of man. With all of the hundreds of posts on this alleged separation of spirit and soul I have not witnessed one workable definition of any separation. Little has ever been discussed to my knowledge of the disticnction and separation that exists between the spirit/soul and the body.

Possibly we need to step down a notch from the spirit/soul proposed separation and see if there is anything separating the spirit /soul from the body. This should lead us to a firm conclusion as to whether or not man was indeed created as a mortal being…..or so one would hope.

 

[Andre]

This is a topic that is very interesting to me. I freely admit that, in a sense, when I became a believer in my early 20's I was dragged kicking and screaming away from my implicit attachment to a deeply materialistic "nobody here but us atoms" perspective on the nature of the human person.

And I still have inclinations that way - I tend to distrust appeals to disembodied ghostlike entities floating around in some unseen spiritual "realm".

But I do think that the Scriptures do not really require us to believe in what many Christians, in fact, believe in, namely that we are "multi-component" entities - with an immaterial soul / spirit inhabiting a physical shell (our body).

My present understanding the Scriptures is this: there is indeed a "spirit" that exists independent of our bodies. I believe in Ecclesiastes, the writer speaks of "spirits" going back to God at death. However, I see no necessity to see this spirit as being a thing that "bears the property of consciousness". I might even argue that the word "spirit" denotes an "information-like" entity - when we die, God "stores" the information that specifies "the me-ness of me" in His mind and will, God willing, rebuild me physically at the time of resurrection.

I am inclined to believe that God has made a universe where human consciousness has to be embodied consciousness - no body, no consciousness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre, do you believe that the physical body of Adam was created mortal or immortal and as such temporal or eternal?

 

[Helen]

If we compare Adam's body with the body Jesus had AFTER the Resurrection, I think we can be pretty sure about saying that Adam was not to have kept that mortal body forever. There is evidently a different physics involved with the bodies that we will inhabit for eternity.

 

[BobRyan]

I am inclined to believe that God has made a universe where human consciousness has to be embodied consciousness - no body, no consciousness.

Bingo!!

That is why in Matt 22 Christ said "God is not the God of the dead". It is why He argues that mankind "needs" the resurrection to be restored to a worship relationship with God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. God TOLD Adam he would die "IF" he ate of the tree of knowledge of good AND EVIL.
(Adam Could die under certain conditions).

2. God told Adam and Eve at the end of Gen 3 that he was expelling them from the Garden of Eden - from access to the Tree of Life -- so that they would NOT not live forever. It is easy to conclude that God did not want a scenario that would result in immortal sinners -- continually enabled to rebel against God.

Again - this implies a "condition" under which adam would eventually die.

Still mankind lived almost 1000 years in every generation until the flood even WITHOUT access to the tree of life.

My guess is that the evil angels are having the same problem.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Andre, do you believe that the physical body of Adam was created mortal or immortal and as such temporal or eternal?

Adam had a physical body.

The tree of life was a physical tree.

the properties of that fruit enabled continual life - as long as one had access to it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Helen: If we compare Adam's body with the body Jesus had AFTER the Resurrection, I think we can be pretty sure about saying that Adam was not to have kept that mortal body forever. There is evidently a different physics involved with the bodies that we will inhabit for eternity.

HP:Let me ask you the question in another way. Is anything that is seen eternal, or is everything we see temporal, and that by design?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Adam had a physical body.The tree of life was a physical tree.

the properties of that fruit enabled continual life - as long as one had access to it.

HP: Then what is your conclusion as to the question in the OP? Was mans physical body designed being mortal or immortal? Be prepared to harmonize your answer with clear Scriptures as to whether or not anything seen is immortal or eternal.

 

[billwald]

The Garden was a mystical/magical place where the physical relationships of this universe (I hate the term "laws of nature) didn't apply.

God might have told Adam he would die. Did this mean any more to Adam than telling him he would qwerty?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BW: The Garden was a mystical/magical place where the physical relationships of this universe (I hate the term "laws of nature) didn't apply.

HP: Possibly like gravity did not apply, and they could just eat all they wanted and still float around in a weightless environment? I bet Eve liked that. :laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let me just expound a bit on the comment of BW. Let’s say for instance that man did not become mortal till after the fall. IF that is the case, what other things can we assume? Could I not also assume that Adam could not be seen, being created immortal, and not inheriting mortality until after the fall? If not why not?

Can anyone think of other implications that we would have to consider as a natural consequence of believing mans nature was not ‘physical’ as we know it, bound to the ‘laws of nature’ until after the fall?

This could prove to be a very interesting topic indeed.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Then what is your conclusion as to the question in the OP? Was mans physical body designed being mortal or immortal? Be prepared to harmonize your answer with clear Scriptures as to whether or not anything seen is immortal or eternal.

Mortal with dependency on access to the tree of life.

If it was immortal to start with - no need to imagine that lack of access to the tree of life would stop man from living "forever"

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Mortal with dependency on access to the tree of life.

HP: If something is created mortal, what does that mean to you? Would you equate mortality with temporality? Was man, in the physical, created as a temporal shell for the soul/spirit of man for a temporary stay on this planet?

 

[BobRyan]

nope -- mortal means "can die" under some scenario -- does not always mean "is dying".

Created as a physical being with access to the tree of life - and with that access would live "forever" as Gen 3 states.

God alone "possess immortality" and has "life within himself".

All other life depends on God for existence.

 

[trustitl]

I am jumping in here a little late and have a few questions. Why would we ever think that Adam was not created mortal? Would he even have been a man if he were not mortal? We need not complicate things by getting to philosophical. It is very simple if we look at what the Bible says and don't venture off into speculative theology.

When God breathed life into Adam, he was physically and spiritually no different than I was at birth other than he started out as a man and I as a baby. The main difference is that Adam did not have the death sentence placed upon him yet and I did (because of Adam- Romans 5:12 ). That may rock your theological boat a bit, but consider it for awhile because it is very important in understanding many biblical truths and will clear up a lot of poor theology.

Also, I am glad to see a discussion where the word "death" in relation to Adam and the fall is understood to mean physical death (of the flesh). Somewhere along the way (around Augustine's time) this death was thought to mean spiritual death. It has caused a lot of confusion and makes Romans 6-8 make no sense. It has led us to this thing called the "sinful nature" whereby all we can do is sin because we are "spiritually dead".

Adam was given a body as it pleased God (I Cor. 15:38-54). This body was "earthy" and "natural" rather than "heavenly" or "spiritual". He compares it to a seed that is sown that must die and come back in a different way. We are sown in "corruption, dishonor, and weakness" but will be raised in "incoruption, glory, and power". What all that means I have no clue. I am sure it will be better than what I can come up with in my wildest dreams.

God designed us, including Jesus, to live in a "vile body' or "sinful flesh" so that the power to live righteously would not come from us, but only from him. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us I Cor. 4:7".

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Cor. 15:50).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Trustiti: God designed us, including Jesus, to live in a "vile body' or "sinful flesh" so that the power to live righteously would not come from us, but only from him. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us I Cor. 4:7".

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Cor. 15:50).

HP: Out of the mouth of a Junior member much truth is proclaimed.:thumbs: I thought your post was very well presented and hit at the heart of the OP. I for one will be paying close attention to your future posts as well. Thanks,

 

[BobRyan]

Adam was given a body as it pleased God (I Cor. 15:38-54). This body was "earthy" and "natural" rather than "heavenly" or "spiritual". He compares it to a seed that is sown that must die and come back in a different way. We are sown in "corruption, dishonor, and weakness" but will be raised in "incoruption, glory, and power". What all that means I have no clue. I am sure it will be better than what I can come up with in my wildest dreams.

In 2Cor 5 Paul says that this fallen nature sinful tent is "decaying".

In Gen 3 God says that Adam was NOT decaying as long as he had access to the tree of life God declared he would "live forever".

The pre-fall human nature (strengths) and post-fall human nature (weaknesses) conditions are not the same. But even the post-fall condition could have survived forever as God said - IF it retained access to the tree of life.

 

[trustitl]

In 2Cor 5 Paul says that this fallen nature sinful tent is "decaying".

In Gen 3 God says that Adam was NOT decaying as long as he had access to the tree of life God declared he would "live forever".

The pre-fall human nature (strengths) and post-fall human nature (weaknesses) conditions are not the same. But even the post-fall condition could have survived forever as God said - IF it retained access to the tree of life.

You actually are supporting my position by acknowledging that Adam needed the Tree of life to sustain himself. His flesh was corruptible but it was not subject to it because of something about the tree of life. It was not his sin that began the decaying process as you called it, but rather his removal from access to the tree. Somewhere along the line Christians have been taught that Adam before the fall was some sort of super human, superior to us in his both his physical and spiritual faculties.

We need to understand that God created Adam morally undeveloped in a physical body, usually called the flesh in the scriptures. He did this for the same reason he allows the Lucifer to reign over this thing called the world. These three things, the world, the flesh, and Satan are the perfect proving ground for growing us into beings who love and trust him. Were these factors not present we would not have the opportunity to choose to not love and trust him. The ability to choose otherwise is what makes it possible for God to be worshipped.

This may appear to be splitting theological hairs, but is it of upmost practical importance for understanding what life is all about.

 

[BobRyan]

Somewhere along the line Christians have been taught that Adam before the fall was some sort of super human, superior to us in his both his physical and spiritual faculties.

Once removed from the tree of life -- He lived for a THOUSHAND years!

Yep - I would call that "superior".

We need to understand that God created Adam morally undeveloped in a physical body, usually called the flesh in the scriptures.

God created man morally sinless in PERFECT harmony with the nature of God MADE in the image of God and sooooo perfect in form that he lived 1000 years even without the Tree of life!

He did this for the same reason he allows the Lucifer to reign over this thing called the world. These three things, the world, the flesh, and Satan are the perfect proving ground for growing us into beings who love and trust him. Were these factors not present we would not have the opportunity to choose to not love and trust him. The ability to choose otherwise is what makes it possible for God to be worshipped.

I am all about free will - believe me but here is your problem.

Lucifer had free will WITHOUT having a devil to tempt him.

Lucifer had free will WHILE IN the very presence of God

Lucifer had free will as an Angel of light.

Lucifer is now enslaved to his sinful passions.

He is now decaying away -- But God will send him into the lake of fire long before he would simply decay and die on his own.

God "alone" possess life WITHIN so that He never dies -- an attribute of his own truly immortal God "nature".

in Christ,

Bob