Was there death already before Adam?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Genesis tells us about the first ever sin, and two parties were involved: man and the one called satan. So here's satan's fall recorded, as is that of man.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is not my statement. I said when God made good evil became present for the opposite of good is evil. There would of been no good or evil if God had not set out the rules of what was good or evil.
It is impossible to give the Law without the breaking of it being evil.
It is impossible to tell Adam He could freely eat of all the trees but the tree of Knowledge and by doing so it was good but if he ate of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil then it was evil. So the possibility of evil was present Adam had just not committed it yet.
Does that make God the author of evil. Those are others words not mine. I say by making good evil became present.
If God had never made good there would be no evil. Good had to come first.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting:
"The only thing that you can show is that sometime after the garden of Eden was created Lucifer was in it. This is what led me to my question above. Lucifer is Satan prior to his fall. Do you believe he fell after Adam and Eve fell?"

No! Where do you read that? Lucifer was an earthly king and is used in Scripture as a type of satan - he wasn't satan himself. Lucifer came much later and after the devil sinned. And his sin of pride and desire we read about in Genesis - that was satan's great asault against the throne of God, and he succeeded to usurp God's throne in the heart of man. It was the fall of both and at once.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is a statement of absolute. Good is not good without evil, so the conclusion is that God is not absolute good that He has some evil in Him or there was His counterpart that was evil, becuase you said you can't have good without evil.

We are not talking about God here we are talking about man. Again it was not my statement but why did God make good if it was unnecessary? Who did make Good, do you know?

 

[J. Jump]

We are not talking about God here we are talking about man.

But man doesn't have ability to create, so man is incapable of creating good or evil.

These are the kind of conversations that it doesn't take long for my head to start hurting. I don't think God created evil, but He did create beings that were capable of doing something that was against His orders, so when Lucifier decided he was going to be God then he sinned and basically became the entire opposite of God. He can't be the exact opposite, because he is a creation and not a creator.

 

[J. Jump]

Lucifer was an earthly king and is used in Scripture as a type of satan

I would agree with that, but DHK said it was Lucifer that tempted Eve, which would have meant it was the angel Lucifier that was given charge over this earth in his unfallen state.

Maybe DHK meant Satan and typed in Lucifer, that's why I was trying to get some clarification.

 

[Brother Bob]

These are the kind of conversations that it doesn't take long for my head to start hurting. I don't think God created evil, but He did create beings that were capable of doing something that was against His orders, so when Lucifier decided he was going to be God then he sinned and basically became the entire opposite of God. He can't be the exact opposite, because he is a creation and not a creator.

J Jump;
You just made my argument Lucifier being the opposite of God. Same is true with "thou shalt not lie" I think you will agree that it is God who demanded that and it was "good" will you not. Also, there is a opposite of not lie as there was an opposite of shall eat thou shall die and the devil used the opposite of what made as good and said thou shalt not die. Now the devil persuaded him to do it but God is the one who made the Good and Satan got him to do the opposite of Good. Do you see what I am trying to say that if God had never of made good there could be no evil.

 

[J. Jump]

Lucifier being the opposite of God

Lucifer was not the opposite of God, but after he fell (becoming Satan) then he became the opposite of God, but there was no opposite of God until Lucifer's sin. Now God had obviously established some rules, which we don't know what they are, but evil did not exist just becuase there were rules in place.

Do you see what I am trying to say that if God had never of made good there could be no evil.

Right, but evil didn't coexist with God before the fall of Lucifer. The potential for evil was there, but God didn't create the evil.

We're probably on the same page, just using differnt words to communicate.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Sin is sin because it is against God's will. Sin explained is sin excused. Sin but for the mercy of God is unpardonable and therefore means death as certain as nihil. Now how can one be sure of nihil? I just know God pardons no sin but will reward it with its natural consequences in every one who does sin - if not He so willed to save this poor miserable soul, for which we thank Christ and worship Him.

 

[Brother Bob]

Lucifer was not the opposite of God, but after he fell (becoming Satan) then he became the opposite of God, but there was no opposite of God until Lucifer's sin. Now God had obviously established some rules, which we don't know what they are, but evil did not exist just becuase there were rules in place.

We don't know but God did. The Tree of Knowledge had the knowledge of "good and evil", before Adam eat or lucifer fell.

We're probably on the same page, just using differnt words to communicate.

I agree. peace we finally agreed on something almost.

 

[J. Jump]

The Tree of Knowledge had the knowledge of "good and evil", before Adam eat or lucifer fell.

Except we aren't told that this tree existed in the original earth created by God. We all told however that it existed after the restoration of the earth and man was in the garden.

I'm not sure who would have eaten of this particular tree prior to the restoration, but it would be speculation to say either way, becuase we just aren't told what the original earth was like in great detail.

 

[Brother Bob]

I thought He created it I didn't know He restored it. peace

 

[LeBuick]

Sin existed but man knew not sin.

I agree with Bro Bob, good is not good without evil. Just as up is not really up without down. You can't have in without an out. So when GOD made good he also made evil.

This is a contradiction of Scripture.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

When God looked at his creation it was very good. There was no evil in all that he created, only goodness. One can have good without evil. And so it was in the Garden of Eden at that time.
--With your statement you have made God the author of evil. Not so. God is not the author of evil. He is not an evil god.

There are 3 beings here, GOD, Angels and Man. Angels and Man do not create. GOD is the creator. I agree with Bob because, as Genesis12 said, good is the absent of evil. It does not have to ever tell you that evil is the absence of good, no good and there is nothing left for it to be. GOD later gave us a name for it, evil.

To this matter GOD said light was good when he created light. When did we begin to associate darkness with evil, was it when we were told light was good?

One CAN’T have good without evil. In the garden was not just good but evil also. Read Gen 3:5 closely, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Satan did not say evil would be introduced to the world or evil would be created, he said your eyes will be opened and you will know good and evil. I take this to mean evil was there but Man didn’t know what it was.

We as Man make new discoveries daily. It does not mean it was not there, we just didn’t know it.

I have always believed the Angels fell during day one which was prior to GOD creating the the garden, day or night. We don't know the length of day one since there was no time.

Time remained steady. God provided the light himself, even though he didn't create the sun, moon, and stars until the fourth day. He says continuously through the account that the first, second, third, etc. etc., days were: "and the evening and the morning were the ----day. They were obviously 24 hour days.

If it wasn't a 24 hour day on the 3rd day, but lets say a thousand year day, as some would assert, then what would happen to the grass and trees during a thousand years of darkness?? It just doesn't fit the paradigm.

I can’t dispute what you say because the Bible does not resolve this for us. This is why I began with, “I always believed…” meaning I have no proof.

However, question for ya, why is it the earth is so much older than man?
How do you account for the dinosaurs?

When the garden was created, angels had sin (1/3 + satan) but man was still innocent. Adam is the introduction of sin and death to man and the world in which we live.

Can you prove that?
The only thing that you can show is that sometime after the garden of Eden was created Lucifer was in it. Sometime after the Garden was created Lucifer tempted Eve. You have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they sinned.
DHK

Again, I have no biblical proof. However, verse 1 is when GOD made the heavens. It is not a far stretch for me to believe that he made the heavenly bodies and all that is of heaven were made when he made the heavens. We don’t know GOD to make half creations.

As J Jump said, it does not matter when GOD made Lucifer. However, I am fairly certain Lucifer fell before the creation of Man or Man’s tempting would have been his first transgression against GOD. We know from the Bible this is not so.

 

[DHK]

When the garden was created, angels had sin (1/3 + satan) but man was still innocent. Adam is the introduction of sin and death to man and the world in which we live. Can you prove that?

Well I'm jumping into a thread here, so excuse me, but DHK are you saying that Satan and 1/3 of the angels (that's kind of a mis-statement, but it will suffice for now) had yet to fall before Adam and Eve fell? I'm a little confused as to this part of your post.

My post is simple.
1. Everything that God made is created. Nothing is immortal or eternal. Even the angels in heaven were created. Why assume that the angels in heaven were created before God's handiwork during the seven-day creation account given in Genesis chapter 1.
In addition I don't subscribe to the Gap Theory.

2. Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
--As it says I believe that God created everything in 6, 24 hour days

3. Satan had to fall before Adam fell for he was in the garden in order to tempt Eve. He was created sometime during that six day period of creation.

However if you want Scripture evidence that Satan and the angels did in fact fall prior to even Adam and Eve's creation just PM and I'll send you some resource material.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree that he did.

It would be difficult to lay out the situation on a message board.
This is what led me to my question above. Lucifer is Satan prior to his fall. Do you believe he fell after Adam and Eve fell?

No, he was there in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve.

I really don't understand how the length of time would have any impact on anything?

Because we don't know exactly when Satan was cast down into the earth. We only know that he was cast down sometime before Adam and Eve fell, but as you say probably before he was created.
DHK

 

[J. Jump]

I don't subscribe to the Gap Theory.

Well as far as I can tell the gap theory as most proclaim it is the way the Bible lays things out. God created Lucifer as the ruler over the earth, which was originally created perfect. He rebelled and that which is was ruler over fell into a ruined state as part of the judgment upon his rebellion.

God needed a new ruler over this planet and created Adam and Eve to start that process. However before they were able to take the throne they disqualified themselves via the Satanic temptation.

Therefore Satan remains on the throne. But one day he will be removed. Christ met Satan face-to-face and passed the test proving himself worthy to redeem that which Adam lost, which is the right to rule.

Christ will one day rule from the heavens, with His bride, in the stead of Satan and his angels and Israel will rule at the head of the physical nations with Christ ruling from the throne of His father David.

That in a nutshell is the big picture of the Bible.

 

[DHK]

One CAN’T have good without evil.

That is a false statement and makes God an evil God and the author of evil.
When God created Adam and Eve they had no knowledge of evil, neither was there evil until they rebelled against God. Even Paul teaches the same thing in Romans 7.

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
--As long as there was no law, it was impossible for sin or any kind of evil to be present.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
--Once the commandment came, sin came alive, and Paul says he died. The reason being because he couldn't keep the law. This is what happened to Adam. He could not keep God's law, that one command of eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He disobeyed it and through the disobedience of that command came to the knowledge of evil. Before that time there was no evil, or the knowledge thereof.
Everything that God looked upon was not only good, it was very good. You can't argue with God.

In the garden was not just good but evil also. Read Gen 3:5 closely, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Satan did not say evil would be introduced to the world or evil would be created, he said your eyes will be opened and you will know good and evil. I take this to mean evil was there but Man didn’t know what it was.

So what would you rather believe? Are you going to believe the statement, a lie of Satan, or the statement, the truth and testimony of God. God said everything that he created was very good. There was no evil in it. Satan wanted to introduce evil into the garden. There was no evil in it at that time, only the temptation to introduce it. Believe Satan's word or God's Word; that is your choice. It was Eve's choice also. She failed the test.

However, question for ya, why is it the earth is so much older than man?

God didn't create Adam as an infant but rather as a full grown man even though he was just a day old after he was created. The earth also had an appearance of age, as did the entire universe. The sun and the rays that instantly came to earth had to have an appearance of age just to warm the earth; as did the stars in order to see them at night. The trees that bore fruit were full grown mature trees bearing fruit. They were not seeds. God created a world with an appearance of age. How old that world looked when he created it we don't know, and neither do the evolutionists.

How do you account for the dinosaurs?

The dinosaurs probably went extinct during the flood or just after when this world underwent great climactic changes.

Again, I have no biblical proof. However, verse 1 is when GOD made the heavens. It is not a far stretch for me to believe that he made the heavenly bodies and all that is of heaven were made when he made the heavens. We don’t know GOD to make half creations.

Verse one is a summary verse of what is to follow. It was in the fourth day that he created the universe, the stars the moon, the sun. Read the account carefully.

As J Jump said, it does not matter when GOD made Lucifer. However, I am fairly certain Lucifer fell before the creation of Man or Man’s tempting would have been his first transgression against GOD. We know from the Bible this is not so.

It only matters to this extent. If you believe the Bible, then Lucifer must have been created sometime within those 6 literal days of creation. I don't believe in two different creations. Nowhere in Scripture does God speak of a second creation.
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
--As long as there was no law, it was impossible for sin or any kind of evil to be present.

Are you saying that it is not true when God said "Love the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve" that right then, it became possible to do evil according to that one command of God?

I respectfully disagree. There was evil but was not imputed. Also in the garden the knowledge of good and evil were present in the fruit of the tree of good and evil. Adam was already doing good but when he ate it was evil because he disobeyed God. The fruit only gave him the knowledge of it. God had already told Adam what was good and what was evil before the fall. Adam might not of known what death was I don't know but he did know that God didn't want him to eat of the tree.
Even the Ten Commandments that God surely gave was what was good in God's eyes and the disobeying of them was evil. God gave the Commandments and the Bible says the righteous of the Law was fulfilled in us. Therefore the Commandments were righteous or good. If they had never been given Paul said he would not even known what evil was but God gave them and to break them was evil. That is not saying God made evil but that when He made good, evil came into existance. For the life of me I don't know why you can't see that? peace

 

[BobRyan]

Well as far as I can tell the gap theory as most proclaim it is the way the Bible lays things out. God created Lucifer as the ruler over the earth, which was originally created perfect.

Not true. God told MAN to rule the earth. "You have put all things under his feet. Sheep, Oxen and the beasts of the field".

Gen 1
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "" Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.''
29 Then God said, ""Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food''; and it was so.
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day

A little Bible now and then never hurt anyone.

 

[BobRyan]

That is a false statement and makes God an evil God and the author of evil.
When God created Adam and Eve they had no knowledge of evil, neither was there evil until they rebelled against God. Even Paul teaches the same thing in Romans 7.

God did not make evil. True.

Mankind was sinless from the start - and this world was created perfect sinless - in harmony with Christ our Creator.

But in heaven - Lucifer had already fallen. God limited him to the tree of knowledge of good and evil and then forbade Adam and Eve to go go there. But it was "their choice" just as it was Lucifer's choice before HIS fall.

He appears in the form of a serpent to deceive mankind.

It worked.

 

[LeBuick]

That is a false statement and makes God an evil God and the author of evil.
When God created Adam and Eve they had no knowledge of evil, neither was there evil until they rebelled against God. Even Paul teaches the same thing in Romans 7.

Was satan evil? Was satan not in the garden before the fall of man?

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
--As long as there was no law, it was impossible for sin or any kind of evil to be present.

Exactly, what Paul was saying is when there is no law, there is no breaking of the law. As soon as there became a law, two conditions came to exist. There is obedience and disobedience. If you obey the law you are good and obedient. If you disobey the law you are evil and disobedient. Just because no one has yet to disobey the law does not remove the condition of disobedience.

So what would you rather believe? Are you going to believe the statement, a lie of Satan, or the statement, the truth and testimony of God. God said everything that he created was very good. There was no evil in it. Satan wanted to introduce evil into the garden. There was no evil in it at that time, only the temptation to introduce it. Believe Satan's word or God's Word; that is your choice. It was Eve's choice also. She failed the test.

I've never taken Satan description of the tree to be a lie. The lie he told is that she would not surely die which was contrary to what GOD had told Adam. The description of the tree is the knowledge of good and evil. What makes you think what the devil said is a lie when he said you would know good and evil?

The dinosaurs probably went extinct during the flood or just after when this world underwent great climactic changes.

Again, there is no biblical facts to prove or disprove this.

Verse one is a summary verse of what is to follow. It was in the fourth day that he created the universe, the stars the moon, the sun. Read the account carefully.

Again, this is all speculation and there is no biblical proof either of us are right. I can see how angels could have been made on the 4th day but I believe they were created with the heavens on day 1.

It only matters to this extent. If you believe the Bible, then Lucifer must have been created sometime within those 6 literal days of creation. I don't believe in two different creations. Nowhere in Scripture does God speak of a second creation.DHK

I too never spoke of two creation stories, I believe we only differ on which day the angels were created. Either way, they were created before the garden as it was made after man who was made on the 6th day. We seem to agree on that. If you read Gen 2:7,8 you will plainly see that man was created before the garden. Man is in verse 7 and the garden was made in verse 8.