Was there death already before Adam?

[LeBuick]

If God considers "Unrighteousness blameless" then what you say is possible and God would be the "creator of evil".

I don't think that it works in scripture.

Is 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Brother Bob]

Don't you think it would of been impossible for God to make Good without creating Evil?

I mean the opposite of Good is Evil
Thou shalt not kill is Good
Opposite is evil.

Just a thought. peace

 

[DHK]

It is true that sin and death entered through Adam -- for "this world" but Lucifer had already fallen and had already caused the fall of 1/3 of the angels in heaven - he was already to be the "serpent of old" the dragan - the devil -- at the time Adam and Eve were created.

There is no Biblical proof of this.

They (Satan and his angels) were cast out of heaven - so death did not come to heaven, they could not claim this earth because Adam had not fallen.

Romans 8 says that this creation - this earth was subjected to decay and death due to the fall of Adam.

The record in Genesis, and the statement in Exodus both state that God created all, including the universe in seven days. Do you have reason to doubt that. In fact God looked upon his creation, even that which was outside of this world, and said that it was very good. That included Lucifer. It is not given when Lucifer fell. All that we know is that he fell sometime before the fall of man. How long was Adam in the garden before he fell? That is not given either. Sometime before Adam fell, and after his creation Satan sinned against God and was cast into the earth. Sometime during those seven days of creation he also was created, possibly on the fourth day with all the objects of the universe.
Remember God has need of anything. He had no need of angels. It never indicates that God had for all eternity cherubim and seraphim surrounding his throne. Only God is truly immortal and everlasting, that is from everlasting to everlasting. Angels and all other creatures such as Lucifer are all created beings. The Lord said that he created all things within seven days. I happen to believe him.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

God created everthing.

God created this world all life on it "And two great lights" in the sky -- in 7 days.

Satan had already fallen as Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28 point out NOT by tempting Eve but by pride issues totally disconnected with Adam and Eve long before the Garden of Eden. His goal was then to MAKE Adam and Eve fall -- at the very start. He wanted them to join his rebellion that already consisted of 1/3 of the Angels.

HAD he been a good angel - he would not have been limited to the tree of knowleged of good and evil. He is "already Satan" at the time he tempts Eve!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Don't you think it would of been impossible for God to make Good without creating Evil?

I mean the opposite of Good is Evil
Thou shalt not kill is Good
Opposite is evil.

Just a thought. peace

If God CREATES evil then He is the author of it and evil is eternal and in fact part of God's nature. This kind of thinking projects the nature of Satan back on to God.

I think free will is at play here in God's creation and that God only creates "good". God always pronounces all that HE makes as "good"

 

[Brother Bob]

What I am saying is that if God made Good that the fact that He made Good it automatically created evil. How else could it be? I guess we don't have to say God created evil but when He made Good it did create Evil, and there is no way around it.
Thou shalt not lie.

Opposite is to lie.

It is the same as draining a swiming pool. It save the life of a drowning child.

To say that a score of 100 is an A
Well anything less is not an A

I guess the making of good is what did the creating and I don't know if that would make God the author or not.

The best example is "The Law of the Commandments". they certainly came from God and to keep them is "good".
But to not keep them is evil.
No way around it BR. peace

 

[DHK]

God created everthing.

God created this world all life on it "And two great lights" in the sky -- in 7 days.

Satan had already fallen as Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28 point out NOT by tempting Eve but by pride issues totally disconnected with Adam and Eve long before the Garden of Eden. His goal was then to MAKE Adam and Eve fall -- at the very start. He wanted them to join his rebellion that already consisted of 1/3 of the Angels.

HAD he been a good angel - he would not have been limited to the tree of knowleged of good and evil. He is "already Satan" at the time he tempts Eve!

In Christ,

Bob

Satan had already fallen as Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28 point out NOT by tempting Eve but by pride issues totally disconnected with Adam and Eve long before the Garden of Eden.
For an SDA that holds so strictly to a seven day creation and thus keeping holy the Sabbath Day on the basis of that argument, you have some very strange beliefs.
The fact remains: God created everything in seven days. That included Lucifer and his angels. Your problem is your above statement which is contradictory to what the Bible says about God's seven day creation: "Satan had already fallen...long before the Garden of Eden." I guess you don't believe in a seven day creation after all. So why are you a Seventh Day Adventist?
DHK

 

[webdog]

Don't you think it would of been impossible for God to make Good without creating Evil?

I mean the opposite of Good is Evil
Thou shalt not kill is Good
Opposite is evil.

Just a thought. peace

I see where you are coming from. It probably is more accurate to say that God made the rules and evil and good results from actions to His rules.

 

[webdog]

Based off Isaiah 14, if the fall occured prior to man, isn't it safe to say that sin had already existed? In regards to the OP, do we know that animals didn't die prior to Adam and Eve's nakedness? If they ate fruit and vegetables, those surely died, no?

 

[LeBuick]

Based off Isaiah 14, if the fall occured prior to man, isn't it safe to say that sin had already existed? In regards to the OP, do we know that animals didn't die prior to Adam and Eve's nakedness? If they ate fruit and vegetables, those surely died, no?

Sin existed but man knew not sin.

I agree with Bro Bob, good is not good without evil. Just as up is not really up without down. You can't have in without an out. So when GOD made good he also made evil.

I have always believed the Angels fell during day one which was prior to GOD creating the the garden, day or night. We don't know the length of day one since there was no time.

When the garden was created, angels had sin (1/3 + satan) but man was still innocent. Adam is the introduction of sin and death to man and the world in which we live.

 

[webdog]

The OP asks was there death before Adam. To clarify, is this any death...or human death?

 

[LeBuick]

The OP asks was there death before Adam. To clarify, is this any death...or human death?

Angels don't die...

 

[webdog]

Angels don't die...

That wasn't the question. Vegetation and animals existed prior to the fall. Where is it in Scripture that they didn't die until Adam's sin?

 

[Hope of Glory]

In Romans 5:12, it's thanatos death, and there's the definite article with it. It's specific, not general.

 

[J. Jump]

I agree with Bro Bob, good is not good without evil.

So what was the evil god when there was just the perfect good God before He did any creating?

 

[DHK]

Sin existed but man knew not sin.

I agree with Bro Bob, good is not good without evil. Just as up is not really up without down. You can't have in without an out. So when GOD made good he also made evil.

This is a contradiction of Scripture.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

When God looked at his creation it was very good. There was no evil in all that he created, only goodness. One can have good without evil. And so it was in the Garden of Eden at that time.
--With your statement you have made God the author of evil. Not so. God is not the author of evil. He is not an evil god.

I have always believed the Angels fell during day one which was prior to GOD creating the the garden, day or night. We don't know the length of day one since there was no time.

Time remained steady. God provided the light himself, even though he didn't create the sun, moon, and stars until the fourth day. He says continuously through the account that the first, second, third, etc. etc., days were: "and the evening and the morning were the ----day. They were obviously 24 hour days.

Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

If it wasn't a 24 hour day on the 3rd day, but lets say a thousand year day, as some would assert, then what would happen to the grass and trees during a thousand years of darkness?? It just doesn't fit the paradigm.

When the garden was created, angels had sin (1/3 + satan) but man was still innocent. Adam is the introduction of sin and death to man and the world in which we live.

Can you prove that?
The only thing that you can show is that sometime after the garden of Eden was created Lucifer was in it. Sometime after the Garden was created Lucifer tempted Eve. You have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they sinned.
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

So what was the evil god when there was just the perfect good God before He did any creating?

huh?????? Please explain. No one said God was evil, ever. peace

 

[genesis12]

In spiritual terms, good is the absence of evil. That will be the JOY of Heaven.

 

[J. Jump]

When the garden was created, angels had sin (1/3 + satan) but man was still innocent. Adam is the introduction of sin and death to man and the world in which we live. Can you prove that?

Well I'm jumping into a thread here, so excuse me, but DHK are you saying that Satan and 1/3 of the angels (that's kind of a mis-statement, but it will suffice for now) had yet to fall before Adam and Eve fell? I'm a little confused as to this part of your post.

However if you want Scripture evidence that Satan and the angels did in fact fall prior to even Adam and Eve's creation just PM and I'll send you some resource material.

It would be difficult to lay out the situation on a message board.

The only thing that you can show is that sometime after the garden of Eden was created Lucifer was in it.

This is what led me to my question above. Lucifer is Satan prior to his fall. Do you believe he fell after Adam and Eve fell?

You have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they sinned.

I really don't understand how the length of time would have any impact on anything?

 

[J. Jump]

huh?????? Please explain. No one said God was evil, ever.

Well here is the statement you made - good is not good without evil - and then someone said they agreed with your statement.

That is a statement of absolute. Good is not good without evil, so the conclusion is that God is not absolute good that He has some evil in Him or there was His counterpart that was evil, becuase you said you can't have good without evil.