Was there death already before Adam?

[Brother Bob]

wrong Bob!!

 

[BobRyan]

You have made the point well Bob, which in my view puts us back at square one stating that "if good is present then so must be evil," is akin to heresy. When God existed in eternity without anything but Himself--the eternal Godhead (for all things were created), then God was present with evil accompanying him side by side. That is absurd! Because God is present does not mean evil must also be present. If that is true God and its counter part "evil" sit on two thrones together in heaven side by side. How absurd!
DHK

Agreed. Evil is "defined" because God is good - God is just and anything that opposes a just God or that contradicts is the "definition" of evil. But evil is not "present". There is a huge difference between violation being "defined" by a correct, just and holy law, vs violation "taking place".

So although "bad" (as in "evil") is defined in heaven today - but "bad things" are not happening in heaven as they are on earth today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

I think the mix up here is the difference between "who" and "what". There is none good except the Father. That is not what we are talking about at all.

 

[DHK]

I think the mix up here is the difference between "who" and "what". There is none good except the Father. That is not what we are talking about at all.

That is correct. There is none good but God--a quote from Christ.
Thus God does not create evil--moral evil. For a good God to be the author of wickedness is incomprehensible and impossible. Thus the word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 does not mean wickedness as has already been pointed out. It simply means calamity, the opposite of peace.
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

That is correct. There is none good but God--a quote from Christ.
Thus God does not create evil--moral evil. For a good God to be the author of wickedness is incomprehensible and impossible. Thus the word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 does not mean wickedness as has already been pointed out. It simply means calamity, the opposite of peace.
DHK

At least you got the first part right. peace

This this the meaning of evil in Hebrew. I ask you where did it come from? You have said where it didn't come from so please enlighten us where it did come from?

'aven aw-ven' from an unused root perhaps meaning properly, to pant (hence, to exert oneself, usually in vain; to come to naught); strictly nothingness; also trouble. vanity, wickedness; specifically an idol:--affliction, evil, false, idol, iniquity, mischief, mourners(-ing), naught, sorrow, unjust, unrighteous, vain ,vanity, wicked(-ness). Compare

 

[BobRyan]

The other point here is "to define evil" is not the same thing as "creating evil"

 

[DHK]

This this the meaning of evil in Hebrew. I ask you where did it come from? You have said where it didn't come from so please enlighten us where it did come from?

'aven aw-ven' from an unused root perhaps meaning properly, to pant (hence, to exert oneself, usually in vain; to come to naught); strictly nothingness; also trouble. vanity, wickedness; specifically an idol:--affliction, evil, false, idol, iniquity, mischief, mourners(-ing), naught, sorrow, unjust, unrighteous, vain ,vanity, wicked(-ness). Compare

Where did that definition come from? It is not the one used in Isaiah 45:7

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

ra` rah

from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.). (Strong’s)

create evil--not moral evil (Jas 1:13), but in contrast to "peace" in the parallel clause, war, disaster (compare Ps 65:7; Am 3:6). (Jamieson, Faucett, Brown

create evil

Heb. "ra" translated "sorrow," "wretchedness," "adversity," "afflictions," "calamities," but never translated sin. God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin. (Scofield)

God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; (John Gill)

 

[Brother Bob]

ra` rah

from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.). (Strong’s)

Are the red highlighted not sin?

Can you show me it is ra` rah instead of 'aven?(from Strong's)

 

[DHK]

Are the red highlighted not sin?

Can you show me it is ra` rah instead of 'aven?(from Strong's)

They are only possibilites. If they don't fit the context they are to be disregarded, and they certainly don't. I have quoted you many commentaries as well to explain how they could not possibly fit the context in which you demand that they do. God is not the author of moral evil or sin. You have set your god up as an evil wicked god. He is not. He is the Almighty Creator who only does that which is good.

Habakkuk 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Your view contradicts Scripture.
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

They are only possibilites. If they don't fit the context they are to be disregarded, and they certainly don't. I have quoted you many commentaries as well to explain how they could not possibly fit the context in which you demand that they do. God is not the author of moral evil or sin. You have set your god up as an evil wicked god. He is not. He is the Almighty Creator who only does that which is good.

What I thought you don't have any Scripture of proof that it is the word you used. You only used it because it fits your explanation of the Chapter of 45:7.

13: I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
14: Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. (He is the one and true God and that is what the Chapter is about).
15: Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
16: They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. (Evil, SIN)

I quote Scriptures, fooey on your commentaries for they are but the ramblings of babling falsehoods. peace

Again you put words and thoughts in my mouth. Never did I say God made the Evil acts themself but only defined what evil is. No one else had the power to do so. Is your God no all powerful or not. How could He make man to have a choice if the choice of good and evil was not there. It is nothing but foolishness to say he made man with a choice when no choice existed.

 

[DHK]

What I thought you don't have any Scripture of proof that it is the word you used. You only used it because it fits your explanation of the Chapter of 45:7.

13: I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
14: Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. (He is the one and true God and that is what the Chapter is about).
15: Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
16: They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. (Evil, SIN)

I quote Scriptures, fooey on your commentaries for they are but the ramblings of babling falsehoods. peace

Bob,
The Scripture in contension is up in verse 7 not in verses 13-17. You are quoting verses out of context. I gave you the context before it, but you totally ignored it and dismissed it.

1. The great things which God would do for Cyrus, that he might be put in a position to release God's people, Isa 45:1-4

2. Evidence that God would give of his eternal power and godhead, and of his universal, sovereignty, Isa 45:5-7

3. A type of dialogue with the unbelieving Jews, who had a quarrel with God for the length of their captivity, Isa 45:9-10

There is the immediate context. Why are you quoting verses that don't have anything to do with the context of the verse??
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

1. The great things which God would do for Cyrus, that he might be put in a position to release God's people, Isa 45:1-4

2. Evidence that God would give of his eternal power and godhead, and of his universal, sovereignty, Isa 45:5-7

3. A type of dialogue with the unbelieving Jews, who had a quarrel with God for the length of their captivity, Isa 45:9-10 (maybe I am missing something but I don't see this at all. what Bible are you using)?

You went all the way to verse 1 and up to verse 10 and condemn me for using 13, come on DHK


1: Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2: I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3: And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4: For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5: I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

You began by saying "evil" was a "clamity". Where is the clamity please. All I see if God showing His people He is the one and true God. Cyrus? He also is showing him that He hath chosen him as His and make his ways straight. "no Clamity". I am not using this Scripture only to show that God made good and defined what evil is. Who else could do that? Who else had the power to do that? No one. He is an all powerful God. peace

 

[DHK]

You went all the way to verse 1 and up to verse 10 and condemn me for using 13, come on DHK

I gave you an outline. I gave you as much of the outline as was necessary to include verse 7. If you want I can give you the whole outline. I can even outline the entire book of Isaiah if you like. I only did that which was necessary to do to make the point clear. Verse 13 was nowhere near the immediate context of verse 7. Consider the outline, that is the immediate context of the verse.

Consider also various other translations:

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things. (NIV)

The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these. (NASV 1995)

7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these [things.'] (NKJV)

45:7I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things. (NRSV)

7-Light - All mens comforts and calamities come from thy hand. (Wesley)

C'mon Bob,
Can all these scholars be wrong? The obvious meaning of evil is calamity. That is what is being contrasted to peace here. It is not the spiritual peace of Christ that is being referred to either. It is a contrast of the calm of a nation to the upheaval of a nation. God can give either one.

Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.
--God puts down nations and lifts up nations. He gives to some peace and to othes calamities. He is a sovereign God. That is the point that is being made to Cyrus.
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

I say one thing DHK;
I think I am starting to like you because of your persistence. I respect someone who is strong in their beliefs. I really think you are thinking I am saying something that I am not but that happens especially on here and sometimes we talk past each other. I really do not insist that the Scripture 45:7 is saying sin but I don't see much evidence for clamity either. I base my beliefs on good and evil only on God made that which is good and in making good it automatically defined what evil is for the opposite came into existance when he made good.
Now, I have said something nice so don't go and tear it down. peace

You know, we used to have a factory in Toronto and I flew up there as a trouble shooter to fix machines and dies when they wouldn't work or broke down. I found the Canadians nice people, how come you so "hard headed"?:laugh: :laugh:

 

[DHK]

I say one thing DHK;
I think I am starting to like you because of your persistence. I respect someone who is strong in their beliefs. I really think you are thinking I am saying something that I am not but that happens especially on here and sometimes we talk past each other. I really do not insist that the Scripture 45:7 is saying sin but I don't see much evidence for clamity either. I base my beliefs on good and evil only on God made that which is good and in making good it automatically defined what evil is for the opposite came into existance when he made good.
Now, I have said something nice so don't go and tear it down. peace

Thank you for the compliment.
I know where you are coming from. But one thing leads to another. Let me ask you:
Do you agree that God created all things; including all things in heaven itself such as all the angels, cherubim, seraphim, etc.,--absolutely everything?
If so, do you believe that there was a time before the foundations of the earth were laid that God (the triune Godhead) was completely alone in His existence (for all things were created and had a point of origin)?
You do believe that God alone it totally immortal do you not?

Having laid that foundation, when God was alone, long before the foundation of the earth, the creation of the angels in heaven, was there evil? In the presence of a holy, righteous, Almighty God, could it be possible for their to be evil on the basis of the presence of a good God. Because good was present does it automatically mean that evil came into exitence at the same time--that is evil would be present, immortal as God is immortal, only because God is good. Does evil have to exist along side God, only because good is present, and evil is its opposite. That is dualism.
Good vs. Bad. Dark vs light. For every thing there is an exact oppositie. But that is not necessarily true. It is only a philosophy unproven by the Bible.

You know, we used to have a factory in Toronto and I flew up there as a trouble shooter to fix machines and dies when they wouldn't work or broke down. I found the Canadians nice people, how come you so "hard headed"?:laugh: :laugh:

Yes, when it comes to Bible doctrine I am stubborn in my beliefs. If I am shown to be wrong I will admit it. But in this area I am not wrong. God is not the author of evil. We need to understand what he is really saying in Isa.45:7, even as other translation have more accurately translated the verse.
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

Let me say that Jesus and the Holy Ghost were there also but these three are one so there was nothing but a Good God there. As far as Acts of Good or Acts of evil what would they have been? God is Good but that is different than saying to not steal is Good for what would they have stole. It is different than saying "not to commit adultery" for who would there be to commit adultery when there is no male or female in Heaven. Again, you are confusing the Goodness of God with the act of doing Good. My point is when ever God made any act of doing something Good then was when the opposite came into existance. Because God is Good don't have to have an opposite. But when God made an act of doing as being good then was when He defined what evil is because the opposite of doing good is evil.

You keep going back as if I am saying that because God is good then there has to be an opposite of God and that is not what I say at all. I just don't know what else to say to make it more clear.

I too am stubborn and I suspect you have caught on to that by now. We may come to a point to just agree to disagree but I think its because we are talking about two different things. I agree there is no opposite of God. I agree there is no evil in Heaven. I just believe that God and God alone defines what is Good and what is evil and I mean acts of doing something. peaceraise:

 

[DHK]

You keep going back as if I am saying that because God is good then there has to be an opposite of God and that is not what I say at all. I just don't know what else to say to make it more clear.

I too am stubborn and I suspect you have caught on to that by now. We may come to a point to just agree to disagree but I think its because we are talking about two different things. I agree there is no opposite of God. I agree there is no evil in Heaven. I just believe that God and God alone defines what is Good and what is evil and I mean acts of doing something. peaceraise:

I understand what you mean as long as you don't confuse the meanings of the word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7.
I will concede your point concerning good and "evil" in a fallen world. But most of this conversation revolved around the creation before Adam and Eve fell, before sin entered into this world. Thus my contension that the word evil means calamity as it better fits the context. God is not the author of evil. He looked upon his creation and all was very good. There was no evil in the garden, at least not when God declared it to be very good. There was only good--Adam and Eve in their innocence. Because there was good doesn't mean there was evil. There wasn't evil until the fall. After the fall, your theory makes more sense.
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

Well we seem to be much closer. I give you one thing to think about though. Before the fall, the Tree of knowledge of good and evil was there and God created it. Again, these were the defining of the act of doing something whether it was good or evil. Now none of these things had happened yet and I give you that. Also it had nothin to do with the opposite of God. I really never did base my belief on 45:7. peace:Fish:

 

[DHK]

Well we seem to be much closer. I give you one thing to think about though. Before the fall, the Tree of knowledge of good and evil was there and God created it.

You may open another can of worms there.
There was nothing inherently wrong or sinful in the fruit of that tree. That is just plain superstition. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (whether it be peach, apple, or whatever) would be more nutritious than our pesticide laden fruit of today. It is not the fruit itself that is inherently evil. The fruit didn't make them sick or on their way to dying. What was evil, was disobeying the command of God not to eat of that fruit. That is what brought sin and death into the world--the disobedience of the command, not the fruit in and of iteself. The fruit was still good. It was still a good tree. It was the command that put the tree off limits that it made it a bad tree to eat the fruit thereof.
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

It is not the fruit itself that is inherently evil. The fruit didn't make them sick or on their way to dying. What was evil, was disobeying the command of God not to eat of that fruit. That is what brought sin and death into the world--the disobedience of the command, not the fruit in and of iteself. The fruit was still good. It was still a good tree. It was the command that put the tree off limits that it made it a bad tree to eat the fruit thereof.

Ok, I will have to think about that for a while but so the fruit was neither good or evil but apparently the knowledge of that tree was. none the less, according to your own statement then the opposite of the command that God gave them was indeed evil. It had not happened as of yet but it had been defined.

Also, satan was in the garden before the fall was that right?