Was there death already before Adam?

[Brother Bob]

Good Discussion

DHK;
Thanks for a very good discussion we had tonight. I think we proved though we differ we still can discuss the subject as brothers in Christ. Blessings,raying: :sleeping_2:

 

[DHK]

Ok, I will have to think about that for a while but so the fruit was neither good or evil but apparently the knowledge of that tree was. none the less, according to your own statement then the opposite of the command that God gave them was indeed evil. It had not happened as of yet but it had been defined.

Also, satan was in the garden before the fall was that right?

I appreciate the discussion too Bob.
There are a couple of unknowns in this equation.
First, when God placed Adam and Eve in the garden, He placed them in a place that was perfect. In other words, Satan was not present there at first. God made a perfect garden.
The first unknown is: how long were Adam and Eve in the garden before they sinned? No one knows.
Seocndly, how long were they in the garden before Satan entered in and indwelt the body of the serpent. No one knows.
Thus, until they sinned, Adam and Eve only knew good. There was no evil. They had not known evil. They would only come to the knowledge of evil by disobeying the command of God. We can't comprehend that because we have sin natures, and sin by nature from the womb (Isa.58:3).
But Adam and Eve had no knowledge of sin. They didn't know what it was, and as Satan said deceptively that God didn't want them to know good and evil. That part was true. They knew good, but didn't know evil. They could only know evil through experience. But they would not become gods, as Satan said.
Thus as I previously said, I agree with you after the fall. Before the fall, they were in a state of innocence. There are also too many variables as to when Satan entered into the garden. Those things we don't know (before the fall).
DHK

 

[LeBuick]

You may open another can of worms there.
There was nothing inherently wrong or sinful in the fruit of that tree. That is just plain superstition. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (whether it be peach, apple, or whatever) would be more nutritious than our pesticide laden fruit of today. It is not the fruit itself that is inherently evil. The fruit didn't make them sick or on their way to dying. What was evil, was disobeying the command of God not to eat of that fruit. That is what brought sin and death into the world--the disobedience of the command, not the fruit in and of iteself. The fruit was still good. It was still a good tree. It was the command that put the tree off limits that it made it a bad tree to eat the fruit thereof.
DHK

Wait, don't overlook chpt 3 vs 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

How did man begin knowing good and evil, by sinning?

 

[DHK]

Wait, don't overlook chpt 3 vs 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

How did man begin knowing good and evil, by sinning?

By disobeying a command of the Lord. The disobedience to the Lord was what brought sin and death into the world.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--

Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.

There was nothing in the fruit itself that was inherently evil. It was no doubt very good and delicious fruit to eat. Eve ate of it and did not immediately become sick. It is not the fruit that caused spiritual separation and the onset of dying or the cause of death. It was simple disobedience to the command that God gave them: Not to eat of that fruit.
It is a superstitious believe to believe that the fruit itself had any inherent power to bring upon Adam and Eve sickness and death.
Again, Adam came to know evil by experiencing it, by breaking the command. All that he had ever known before was good. He had never tasted of sin before that time. He had never known of evil before that time. He didn't know what it was.
DHK

 

[LeBuick]

By disobeying a command of the Lord. The disobedience to the Lord was what brought sin and death into the world.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--

Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.

There was nothing in the fruit itself that was inherently evil. It was no doubt very good and delicious fruit to eat. Eve ate of it and did not immediately become sick. It is not the fruit that caused spiritual separation and the onset of dying or the cause of death. It was simple disobedience to the command that God gave them: Not to eat of that fruit.
It is a superstitious believe to believe that the fruit itself had any inherent power to bring upon Adam and Eve sickness and death.
Again, Adam came to know evil by experiencing it, by breaking the command. All that he had ever known before was good. He had never tasted of sin before that time. He had never known of evil before that time. He didn't know what it was.
DHK

I know how sin entered the world, but GOD said "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."

Now we can speculate what exactly GOD is saying but this is almost a fulfillment of what satan previously said. I'm not saying there was more in the fruit. I am saying you can't be certian there was nothing more to the fruit.

If the fruit was nothing more than a fruit, then I would suppose the tree of life is equally just fruit???

 

[Hope of Glory]

As a side note, one thing that happened was, when they were confronted, they never repented; they made excuses. "She made me do it!" "He made me do it!"

 

[DHK]

As a side note, one thing that happened was, when they were confronted, they never repented; they made excuses. "She made me do it!" "He made me do it!"

We have no evidence of that. We only have evidence of their initial reaction to God when found out about eatting the forbidden fruit.
Consequent to that action God made an atoning sacrifice for their sin.

Genesis 3:21 And Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins, and clothed them.

Genesis 3:15 points to the hope of a coming Messiah.

In Genesis 4 Abel was a prophet of God listed in Hebrews 11 who also received direct revelation from God.

Genesis 4:25-26 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth. For, said she, God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel; for Cain slew him.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh. Then began men to call upon the name of Jehovah.

Eve's apparent hope of a coming redeemer according to the promise of 3:15 was in Seth. His name means appointed. God has appointed her another to fulfill the place of Abel.

Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

And then there was Enoch, when men began to call upon the name of the Lord.
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

I would say that 930 years is plenty of time to repent. Wouldn't you? Just because they didn't repent immediately doesn't mean they didn't repent. The very fact that God took an animal for them and shed the blood of that animal for them gives credence to their repentance.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

I would say that 930 years is plenty of time to repent. Wouldn't you? Just because they didn't repent immediately doesn't mean they didn't repent. The very fact that God took an animal for them and shed the blood of that animal for them gives credence to their repentance.
DHK

Immediately was what I was talking about. I think we have evidence that they did repent, but not when it was appropriate. They did not repent voluntarily. They didn't come and say, "God, I sinned..." When he confronted them, instead of saying, "God, I sinned..." they started pointing fingers.

Now, although we're responsible for our own actions, I also think we're responsible when we tempt someone or aid and abet their sin, just as Satan was held accountable.

But, once the sentence was declared, it's too late to say, "I'm sorry!" Even if they are forgiven, they still have to suffer the consequences. If you sin while on this earth, you have to repent before you die. (Except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which cannot be forgiven in this age, nor in the age to come.) If not, you will be held accountable at the Judgment Seat of Christ. What will that penalty be? Well, we're told that our spiritual salvation is secure, but we're also told that we will be held accountable.

 

[Brother Bob]

HoG;
Surely you don't believe a saved person could blaspheme the Holy Ghost and still be a saved person.

 

[Hope of Glory]

HoG;
Surely you don't believe a saved person could blaspheme the Holy Ghost and still be a saved person.

Acts 16:31: (In response to "What must I do to be saved?) "Believe on the Lord Jesus and don't blapheme the Holy Spirit and you will be saved."

It doesn't say that.

Rom 8:35-39: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, only blasphemy of the Holy Spirit shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I think you are confusing spiritual salvation with responsibility for our sins.

What is the penalty for an unforgiven sin?

 

[Brother Bob]

Lake of Fire
If you guilty in one point you guilty of all.
I do not accept nor will I accept that someone kept by the power of God and the Holy Spirit indwelteth in him can commit such acts. If he does so he was never saved to start with but was mistaken in his Salvation. Or, to renew him unto repentance again is impossible.
The steps of a good man are ordered of the Lord.
Since coming on BB I have heard some things said that children of God are supposed to be able to do which I do not accept.
Neither does anyone mostly, just look at Jimmy Swaggert or Jim Baker. Do you think they were really forgiven by their fellow christians. Never, all the followers they have now are people I don't understand but they are only a few and the blind lead the blind and they both fall in the ditch.

Now, If you need me to start posting Scriptures on here I can but it probably won't change your veiw and I know it is not going to change mine. If someone in our congregation of members did such a thing we would immediately withdraw fellowship from him. No if buts or ands.

Didn't you add the red in that last Scripture I don't seem to remember it being there in that place. Doesn't it say it will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come? It don't belong to me to say who is going to Heaven or not, it belongs to God. All I can do is read His word and pray.

John, chapter 8

"21": Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Didn't you add the red in that last Scripture I don't seem to remember it being there in that place.

If you're referring to a comparison between a red letter Bible, that's something that is simply a man-made tradition. I simply used the red to show you what I added, which would have to be added to make those verses true, according to what you are espousing.

If you'll look at this thread, you'll see that about a third of Baptists are not deceived by the false teaching that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit leads to a loss of salvation:

What Sins are Christians Capable Of?

If you equate unforgiven sin with a loss of salvation, and it's as you say, if you're guilty of one part, you're guilty of all, what happens if you are driving 20 MPH over the speed limit and die instantly in a head-on collision? Or, what happens if someone steals a pack of gum and gets shot at that exact moment?

They die with unforgiven sin. Do they also lose their salvation?

 

[Brother Bob]

I am talking about the sins unto death such as breaking the Commandments that Jesus espoused to the young man. Also He said If you love me you will keep my Commandments. I believe if you are and adultereous, liar, stealer, murder, worship idol God etc you will never see what Heaven looks like unless you repent. That is what the blood is all about. If people can go to Heaven in their sins then Christ died in vain.

Those who are trying to say what you are always fall back to some silly thing like going 20 miles over the speed limit. Why not say if a person is a murder can he go to Heaven unforgiven and then I can answer you very easy. Twenty miles over the speed limit I have never found in the Commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

I appreciate the discussion too Bob.
There are a couple of unknowns in this equation.
First, when God placed Adam and Eve in the garden, He placed them in a place that was perfect. In other words, Satan was not present there at first. God made a perfect garden.
The first unknown is: how long were Adam and Eve in the garden before they sinned? No one knows.

Seocndly, how long were they in the garden before Satan entered in and indwelt the body of the serpent. No one knows.

Thus, until they sinned, Adam and Eve only knew good. There was no evil. They had not known evil. They would only come to the knowledge of evil by disobeying the command of God. We can't comprehend that because we have sin natures, and sin by nature from the womb (Isa.58:3).
But Adam and Eve had no knowledge of sin.

I agree up to this point. To be accurate - they "had no knowledge of what it was LIKE to sin".

It is VERY likely that the war in heaven waged by Satan and 1/3 of the angels is not "kept as a secret from mankind -- all the better to dupe us into sinning". I think Adam was told about the fallen angels. But still they did not know what it was "like" to sin.

They could only know evil through experience.

Agreed. That is the sense in which they did not know it.

Evil was "defined" for them by God - but was not "known" by them - experientially.

Before the fall, they were in a state of innocence. There are also too many variables as to when Satan entered into the garden. Those things we don't know (before the fall).
DHK

Agreed.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Twenty miles over the speed limit I have never found in the Commandments.

Are we not commanded to obey the laws of man, unless they violate the laws of God?

Is not sin sin?

Is not unforgiven sin unforgiven?

"Thou shalt not steal." If you steal a pack of gum and are shot that moment, does that mean you lose your salvation?

 

[Brother Bob]

Romans, chapter 6

"16": Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 John, chapter 5

"16": If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

No, sin is not sin.
Some are unto death and some are going 20 miles over the speed limit.

As far as the stealing gum it is in the hand of God I couldn't forgive anybody their sins it takes God but doubt very much if someone would get shot over a peice of gum but all things are possible. I will say this, a true child of God would not steal the gum to start with.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I will say this, a true child of God would not steal the gum to start with.

Oh, really?

Would a true child of God go over the speed limit?

What's the magic line that decides who is and who isn't a true child of God?

 

[DHK]

Immediately was what I was talking about. I think we have evidence that they did repent, but not when it was appropriate. They did not repent voluntarily.

Then they did not repent (according to you.)
All repentance is voluntary. There is no such thing as forced repentance. Step by step God had to lead them to the place where they would admit their own guilt. Perhaps that is the reason God in his foreknowledge knew that it would play out that way and had it recorded for us--that we would learn from their mistakes.

They didn't come and say, "God, I sinned..." When he confronted them, instead of saying, "God, I sinned..." they started pointing fingers.

God created humans not animals or robots. They were just like us. Their reaction is no different than anyone else would do to day. Please don't tell me that you would be any different.

Now, although we're responsible for our own actions, I also think we're responsible when we tempt someone or aid and abet their sin, just as Satan was held accountable.

And if you read the account in Genesis 3:9-19 you find that each one: Adam, Eve, and the serpent were held accountable, personally accountable for their own sin. Their respective punishments are recorded.

But, once the sentence was declared, it's too late to say, "I'm sorry!" Even if they are forgiven, they still have to suffer the consequences.

That is not true at all. It is never too late for forgiveness--never!!
There is always a consequence for sin. That is a given fact. The wages of sin is death. There is a consequence of sin. Be sure your sin will find you out. There is a consequence for sin--All the time.
But God will always forgive--always. It is never too late to say I'm sorry, never! If you think that to be true--please don't get married.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If you sin while on this earth, you have to repent before you die.

Are you a Catholic? Do you have to receive extreme unction as well? Or are you of the holiness movement and believe in entire sanctification? Do you think you can be perfectly holy when that heart attack suddenly hits you, or you suddenly die in an automobile accident? Do you live your life without sin so that you can be assured of going to heaven if you should die suddenly tonight? What happens if the priest doesn't make it on time? This priest (me), a priest before God, already knows that his sins are covered by the blood--past, present, and future. There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
Your statement is both unbiblical and illogical. It has the ring of a cult and/or Roman Catholicism.

(Except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which cannot be forgiven in this age, nor in the age to come.)

You may as well not bring up this subject again. It is impossible to commit this sin. It was only a possibility during the time of Jesus when he walked on this earth. At that time the Pharisees and others actually saw the miracles that Christ himself did. They attributed those miracles to the power of Satan. That was blasphemy of the Holy Spirit--something that cannot be duplicated today.

If not, you will be held accountable at the Judgment Seat of Christ. What will that penalty be?

There won't be any, because the sin is impossibe to commit

Well, we're told that our spiritual salvation is secure, but we're also told that we will be held accountable.

There is not a single verse in 1Cor.3:11ff (which describes the judgement seat of Christ) which indicates that one can lose their salvation--not one. We will be judged according to our works. We may lose reward in heaven, but not our salvation.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

Then they did not repent (according to you.)
All repentance is voluntary. There is no such thing as forced repentance. Step by step God had to lead them to the place where they would admit their own guilt. Perhaps that is the reason God in his foreknowledge knew that it would play out that way and had it recorded for us--that we would learn from their mistakes.

That is precisely my point. They did not repent, until it was too late. I never said that it was too late for forgiveness, only too late to not suffere the consequences.

God created humans not animals or robots. They were just like us. Their reaction is no different than anyone else would do to day. Please don't tell me that you would be any different.

Did I say that I would? I do try to, but as all people, I fall short. Don't try to imply that I said something that I did not say.

And if you read the account in Genesis 3:9-19 you find that each one: Adam, Eve, and the serpent were held accountable, personally accountable for their own sin. Their respective punishments are recorded.

Which is exactly what I was pointing out.

That is not true at all. It is never too late for forgiveness--never!!
There is always a consequence for sin. That is a given fact. The wages of sin is death. There is a consequence of sin. Be sure your sin will find you out. There is a consequence for sin--All the time.

Well, except for unconfessed sin, it's never too late for forgiveness, and until you die, it's not too late to confess your sins.

But God will always forgive--always. It is never too late to say I'm sorry, never! If you think that to be true--please don't get married.

God will not forgive unconfessed sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age, nor in the next, and lawlessness (willful sin) hold a special place of importance in the Scriptures.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Here's an if/then statement. If we don't confess our sins, guess what? He's faithful and just to not forgive us our sins.

Are you a Catholic? Do you have to receive extreme unction as well? Or are you of the holiness movement and believe in entire sanctification? Do you think you can be perfectly holy when that heart attack suddenly hits you, or you suddenly die in an automobile accident? Do you live your life without sin so that you can be assured of going to heaven if you should die suddenly tonight?

I have no idea why you would think that I'm a Catholic, I don't even know what an extreme unction is, and you would have to define what you mean by "holiness movement", since that's a bit ambiguous.

But, as men, I doubt that anyone can be perfectly holy when that heart attack suddenly hits, and I'm not sure why this question is germane to the discussion at hand. Except, that I was pointing out the absurdity of creating a magic line for sin that defines who a child of God is, and in so doing, I was pointing out that the unconfessed sin of stealing is unconfessed sin and was trying to get a reply of the results of that.

My assurance of salvation has absolutely nothing to do with any behavior on my part tonight, or ever. My salvation is secure based upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

Your statement is both unbiblical and illogical. It has the ring of a cult and/or Roman Catholicism. (This was said in response to my statement: If you sin while on this earth, you have to repent before you die.)

Well, how do you repent after you die?

You may as well not bring up this subject again. It is impossible to commit this sin. It was only a possibility during the time of Jesus when he walked on this earth. At that time the Pharisees and others actually saw the miracles that Christ himself did. They attributed those miracles to the power of Satan. That was blasphemy of the Holy Spirit--something that cannot be duplicated today.

There are many who would disagree with you about that, and not all of them hold the same view that I do. There are many people who have different opinions about what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is, and they don't agree with you.

There won't be any, because the sin is impossibe to commit

In your opinion.

There is not a single verse in 1Cor.3:11ff (which describes the judgement seat of Christ) which indicates that one can lose their salvation--not one. We will be judged according to our works. We may lose reward in heaven, but not our salvation.
DHK

Have I ever said anywhere that anyone's spiritual salvation could be lost? Have you not seen the hundreds of times that I have posted that it could not be lost, nor even forfeited.

I'm not even sure why you would imply that I have ever said otherwise, because that is about as untrue a statement as anyone could make.

 

[DHK]

That is precisely my point. They did not repent, until it was too late. I never said that it was too late for forgiveness, only too late to not suffere the consequences.

You have put yourself in the position of God. As God you are the One that decides when it is too late to repent and when it isn't. That is quite an arrogant position for you to take. Lucifer took the same position. You know what happened to him. You said: The did not repent until it was too late. Unbelievable!

Well, except for unconfessed sin, it's never too late for forgiveness, and until you die, it's not too late to confess your sins.

You still don't get the point do you? Let me ask you pointedly. You answer this question for me. I know that you are a sinner (perhaps a sinner saved by grace such as I), but a sinner nevertheless. In fact you no doubt sin every day. The Bible says that if you say that you deny that you sin not you make Christ a liar and there is no truth in you. Read 1John 1:8,10. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We are all sinners. I hope we can agree there. Suppose you have told an unconfessed lie and die of a sudden heart attack without the time to confess it; or have been angry with your father, and have not had the time to be reonciled with him. You die before that sin is confessed. Will you, according to your theology, go to heaven? Yes or No?

God will not forgive unconfessed sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age, nor in the next, and lawlessness (willful sin) hold a special place of importance in the Scriptures.

You can ask God about it when you get there. I believe you are wrong. God has already forgiven all my sins: past, present and future. My salvation is secure in him.

Here's an if/then statement. If we don't confess our sins, guess what? He's faithful and just to not forgive us our sins.

That has no bearing whatsoever on my salvation.

I have no idea why you would think that I'm a Catholic, I don't even know what an extreme unction is, and you would have to define what you mean by "holiness movement", since that's a bit ambiguous.

If you are talking about salvation you are speaking of a works based salvation, just like the Catholics have. My sins are all forgiven, all under the blood. Are yours?

But, as men, I doubt that anyone can be perfectly holy when that heart attack suddenly hits, and I'm not sure why this question is germane to the discussion at hand. Except, that I was pointing out the absurdity of creating a magic line for sin that defines who a child of God is, and in so doing, I was pointing out that the unconfessed sin of stealing is unconfessed sin and was trying to get a reply of the results of that.

Your view on unconfessed sin presents an anomaly in your theology and a contradition in your view on the finished work of Christ and on eternal security. Apparently you believe that one can lose their salvation, is not eternally secure, if they have unconfessed sin. Thus the discussion of when, and how you die. If you die with unconfessed sin, apparently you will go to Hell. That is heresy in my opinion, as far as the Bible teaches.

My assurance of salvation has absolutely nothing to do with any behavior on my part tonight, or ever. My salvation is secure based upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

So you say. But your opinion on unconfessed sin says otherwise.

Well, how do you repent after you die?

There is no repentance after death. If you believe in that then you believe that salvation is by works and that Christ's blood was not sufficient to cover the payment for all your sins. You take on the belief of some kind of purgatory perhaps (I'm not sure). There is no repentance after your dead. You are either saved or lost before death. If Christ is not your Saviour before death He will be your judge after death. Now is the time to repent, not afterward. There will be no opportunity afterward.

There are many who would disagree with you about that, and not all of them hold the same view that I do. There are many people who have different opinions about what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is, and they don't agree with you.

They are entitled to their opinions. Again, they may ask the Lord when they get to Heaven.

In your opinion.

I go by what the Bible says. Prove me otherwise.

Have I ever said anywhere that anyone's spiritual salvation could be lost? Have you not seen the hundreds of times that I have posted that it could not be lost, nor even forfeited.

Yes you have. You have implied it many tmes in this post. If a man has unconfessed sin he is lost. This is your view isn't it?

I'm not even sure why you would imply that I have ever said otherwise, because that is about as untrue a statement as anyone could make.

Not as far as I read your posts.
DHK