We, both Jews and Gentiles, are Abraham's seed

I was doing some studying in Romans yesterday when I started reading chapter nine. DHK vehemently denies that we, the Gentiles, are of Abraham's seed. But here is what I came across in chapter nine:


I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.[vss 1-5]

Here, Paul is anguishing that many of his lineage(family) were unbelievers, and also many friends and those he used to associate with, the chief priests, the Pharisees, Saducees, &c were resting in their natural lineage traced back to Abraham. He is showing us all that they had been given, the very words of God, the covenants, temple worship, and even the promises of God. Yet, in all of this, they were still unbelievers. They had turned the office of High Priest into a political office, instead of what it was intended for, to atone for the Jews' sins by sacrificing lambs, oxen, turtledoves, and/or goats.


It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[vss 6-9]

Here Paul lays the ground work to show who the true Jews were/are. It was not through the fleshly lineage of Abraham's natural seed(Isaac), but through Abraham's Spiritual lineage(Christ), that the nations shall be blessed.[Gen. 18:18, 22:18, 26:4, & 27:29, Psa. 72:17, Isa. 61:9, Mal. 3:12 & Gal. 3:8] Sarah's son, Isaac, fathered Jacob, who fathered the twelve patriarchs, and through Judah's lineage Christ came. It was through Abraham's Spiritual Seed, Christ, that the nations shall be blessed.


Then in Galatians 4 Paul tells them(a Gentile peoples, by the way):


Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.[vss 28-31]

These Gentiles were also children of promise, the same promise that God gave to Abram, who later became Abraham. Then in chapter three of Galatians Paul states Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.[vss 7-9] Then he also stated He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.[vs 14] And this chapter three is closed about by Paul's statement So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.[vss 26-29]

So we, both believing Jews and Gentiles make up the true Jews.

 

I am just waiting for DHK to come and debate where he thinks I am wrong.

 

Never stated otherwise. But were they a nation at the time of Christ, seeing they were under Rome's kings? I ask this in all sincerity, mon ami.

Any blessings we receive is via faith. Never stated otherwise.

Again, he is what I came across in Romans 1 this evening monsieur:

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life(fleshly lineage) was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power[vss 1-4] Here Paul is painting a portrait of Christ as Son of Man(via David's{and conversely Isaac's} seed in the flesh) and as Christ as the Son of God(via the Spirit). It is through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah----->David, Solomon, that Christ came through as the Son of Man and also Son of God, being God in the flesh.[1 Tim. 3:16] Every fleshly Jew is a true descendant of Abraham. However, the true Jew of the bible, those born of the Spirit, are both Jew(naturally born) and Gentile(grafted in to the True Vine, Christ).

He was anguishing over his family and the Israelites, yes, I agree.

Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children.[Rom. 9:7a] Paul plainly stated that the true Jews were not necessarily of Abraham's lineage, ergo Gentiles.

You keeping reiterating 'faith' as if I disagree with its necessity. :confused;

The point I am making is we attained the very same promises that God gave to Abram, and later Abraham, and we are Spiritual descendants of Abraham. The saved Jew is both a fleshly and Spiritual descendant of Abraham. The fleshly descendants that die unsaved, suffer the same consequences of the unsaved gentiles. Paul is telling the Jews who have come out of Judaism that is what it takes, being spiritual Jews and not only fleshly Jews.

Yes. You need to take your anti-faith, anti-sola fide debates up with those who are as such.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. Please show me one post where I stated anything of the contrary. The promise was to seed and not seeds, monsieur. The seed is Christ, and the unsaved Jews die and go to torment just the same as the unsaved gentile. The Jews during Christ's and Paul's ministries were resting in their fleshly lineage, thinking that being born of Abraham's lineage was all they needed. Christ and Paul both told them the truth, that being born a natural Jew just was not going to cut it. It takes a birth from above, a birth of the Spirit, and that is the only thing that make anyone a true Jew, biblically speaking.

He first went to the He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”[Matt. 15:24] I do not disagree with Him. But yet, Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— [Jn 1:12]

Uh, non.As paul wrote to the church at Galatia, a Gentile church The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.[Gal. 3:16] You have two promises provided to two separate entities, the church and Israel, and that is a foreign concept to the bible, monsieur.

A Jew inwardly. :thumbsup:

A Jew inwardly. :thumbsup:

A Jew inwardly, :thumbsup:

Christian means Christ'like', non, mon ami/ Jesus is the true Israel, the true Jew, who is One inwardly and outwardly.

 

Non, monsieur, non, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.[Rom. 2:29]

Again, in Jesus' earthly ministry, He was confronted by those who "Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”[Jn 8:53] They wanted nothing to do with Jesus' words because "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."[Jn 10:26] and also because "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."[Jn 8:44] They thought that by Abraham being their father, that was sufficient enough. Jesus, and later Paul, told them otherwise.


In John 3, Jesus tells Nicodemus "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."[Jn 3:3] He was telling Nicodemus that the fleshly birth was not enough. It takes a birth of the Spirit, and this makes all who are saved a Jew inwardly.


In John 15 Jesus says “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.[vss 1-8]

Compare that passage to Romans 11 where Paul wrote If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.[vs 16] Jesus is the Firstfruit, and we take upon us His nature, in our spirit, in our soul. The Jews of this very day have to go through this same experience in order to be a true Biblical Jew.

and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root.[Rom. 11:17b] The Jews need grafted into this True Vine, too. If they are, they are nourished by His sap. Just are we, as Gentiles, are nourished.

 

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.[Rom. 4:9-12]

He is the father of Jewish(circumcised in flesh{foreskin removal}) and Gentile believers. Both have had a circumcision of the heart.[Rom. 2:29 & Col. 2:11]