We Do NOT Believe

[Salty]

The site says they do not like a statement of faith.

What are your thoughts?

 

[David Lamb]

What a pity! There is so much on that site that (I imagine) most of us would agree with. For instance:

We DO NOT believe that [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]all religions are valid paths to the same destination[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1], [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]that Jesus was just a good man and a wise teacher.[/SIZE][/FONT]

We DO NOT believe that [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]baptism is necessary for salvation[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]. [/SIZE][/FONT]

We DO NOT believe in a vague Heaven somewhere out there, which is based more on endless cartoons of people with wings standing around on white clouds strumming harps

We DO NOT believe that Christians should be playing footsie with [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]New Age[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1] beliefs[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1], [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Theosophy[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1], [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Yoga[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1], [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]walking [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Labyrinths[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]or indulging in mystical practices[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]. [/SIZE][/FONT]
​

But when it says:

Please Note: That we, as a family, belong to no man-made denomination, attend no 21st Century church nor subscribe to any man-made creed.
​

I immediately think of Hebrews 10.25, and its warning against forsaking the assembling of ourselves together. But perhaps he means he attends a 19th century church!

 

[DHK]

Just click on any one of his many links, such as "trinity" and you will find that his "statement of faith" is very detailed indeed.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

I am not as concerned about the ideas with which he agrees or disagrees as I am about the flavor, the affect, of the statement. So utterly negative! I am certainly not one who wants a flabby theology, but I do think "they will know we're Christians by our love" and not by our polemics.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

What a pity! There is so much on that site that (I imagine) most of us would agree with. ---snip---

Agreed, it appears to be a well reasoned dissertation.

I also have a problem with not being part of a Fellowship.


There are many reasons why someone might turn away from formal alliances with a given church.

Some of us are too much of a round peg in a square hole.

This results in our being more of a distraction than a blessing anywhere we go.

Some of us have been "reamed" and "misled" and even "back stabbed" by pastors and church leaders.

Some of us have operated in realms not fully understood by our peers and have been "encouraged" to leave.

Some of us have found ourselves in churches that looked really great only to find out they were actually a part of some weird "Revival Cult".

At other times we have found ourselves in a really great church. But, were too much of a distraction because of known theological differences. An inability to just sit still, and excessive scrutiny of everything said or done by at least one elder.

That church I miss dearly. And, long for an excuse to return...


So, I ask the question...

Is there a difference between Forsaking, as in I'll never darken a church door again, and, Oh Lord please help us find a place where we can fit in and be a blessing?

Of course this probably should be a completely separate thread.

 

[billwald]

It is a very complex statement of faith, hardly worth the effort put into it.

Roy A. Clouser, "The Myth Of Religious Neutrality," makes a good case in the first quarter of the book that all human activity has a religious component. The rest of the book is BS. Skim the first section while standing in a book store and you will get the drift of his argument from the diagrams and inset paragraphs.

 

[Pareeeee]

What a pity! There is so much on that site that (I imagine) most of us would agree with. For instance:

We DO NOT believe that [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]all religions are valid paths to the same destination[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1], [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]that Jesus was just a good man and a wise teacher.[/SIZE][/FONT]

We DO NOT believe that [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]baptism is necessary for salvation[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]. [/SIZE][/FONT]

We DO NOT believe in a vague Heaven somewhere out there, which is based more on endless cartoons of people with wings standing around on white clouds strumming harps

We DO NOT believe that Christians should be playing footsie with [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]New Age[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1] beliefs[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1], [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Theosophy[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1], [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Yoga[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1], [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]walking [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Labyrinths[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]or indulging in mystical practices[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]. [/SIZE][/FONT]
​

But when it says:

Please Note: That we, as a family, belong to no man-made denomination, attend no 21st Century church nor subscribe to any man-made creed.
​

I immediately think of Hebrews 10.25, and its warning against forsaking the assembling of ourselves together. But perhaps he means he attends a 19th century church!

I like this post. I don't have to say anything than "I agree completely"

 

[Amy.G]

It is a very complex statement of faith, hardly worth the effort put into it.

Yeah. Kinda like reading your posts.

 

[Eric B]

They seem to believe in faith plus works (using various scriptures that discuss "other things tied to salvation"), moreso than works being a result of faith done in live. They list ten things needed to be saved, insisting it is not "only" any one of them.
so they seem to be pretty much like the Catholics, Campbellists or sabbatarians on this, though they do not appear to add all the specific practices.

 

[BobRyan]

Looks like a pretty good web site to me!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

what a pity! There is so much on that site that (i imagine) most of us would agree with. For instance:

we do not believe that [font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]all religions are valid paths to the same destination[/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1], [/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]that jesus was just a good man and a wise teacher.[/size][/font]

we do not believe that [font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]baptism is necessary for salvation[/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]. [/size][/font]

we do not believe in a vague heaven somewhere out there, which is based more on endless cartoons of people with wings standing around on white clouds strumming harps

we do not believe that christians should be playing footsie with [font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]new age[/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1] beliefs[/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1], [/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]theosophy[/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1], [/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]yoga[/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1], [/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]walking [/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]labyrinths[/size][/font] [font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]or indulging in mystical practices[/size][/font][font=verdana,tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]. [/size][/font]
​

but when it says:

please note: that we, as a family, belong to no man-made denomination, attend no 21st century church nor subscribe to any man-made creed.
​

i immediately think of hebrews 10.25, and its warning against forsaking the assembling of ourselves together. But perhaps he means he attends a 19th century church!

ge:

Fine retort!!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting the nameless...

"We DO NOT believe in Original Sin, since it is not only absurd, it is plain superstition to believe that we sinned in Adam thousands of years before we were born and began our existence. Sin is not substance or a virus or anything physical. It does not live or have personality, therefore cannot be transmitted from person to person. Sin is a immoral choice made by the sinner, that transgresses God's law. Apart from the sinner who commits the act or makes the choice, sin does not exist. (See The Myth of Original Sin)

We DO NOT believe that there is any logical nor Biblical reason why a sovereign God by His own sovereign design could not allow creatures made in His image the freedom of genuine moral choice."

GE:
Karl Barth said something like there's only one point on which division in the Church can be understood and tolerated.

It is obvious which point.

Op 'n punt van orde,

Right at the bottom of the page some names are mentioned.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Quoting the nameless...

"We DO NOT believe in Original Sin, since it is not only absurd, it is plain superstition to believe that we sinned in Adam thousands of years before we were born and began our existence. Sin is not substance or a virus or anything physical. It does not live or have personality, therefore cannot be transmitted from person to person. Sin is a immoral choice made by the sinner, that transgresses God's law. Apart from the sinner who commits the act or makes the choice, sin does not exist. (See The Myth of Original Sin)

We DO NOT believe that there is any logical nor Biblical reason why a sovereign God by His own sovereign design could not allow creatures made in His image the freedom of genuine moral choice."

GE:
Karl Barth said something like there's only one point on which division in the Church can be understood and tolerated.

It is obvious which point.

Op 'n punt van orde,

Right at the bottom of the page some names are mentioned.

Gerhard,

You are 100% in error here. Romans 5:13-19 is a very precise and developed argument to prove that Adam acted as the representative of the human race and in that one act all mankind sinned when Adam sinned. What do you think the incarnation was all about? Why didn't Jesus, the man, be born the normal way that John the Baptist was born? Sin is not inherited but the sin nature is inherited. Levi was in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizidek and yet Paul says that Levi paid the tithe. Abraham's action is attributed to Levi.

We are not only made sinners by representation when Adam sinned but we were made sinners by nature in Adam and that nature is manifested individuallythrough physical birth. We were not only made righteous by representation when Christ acted in our behalf but we were made righteous by nature "in Christ" that nature is manifested individually through new birth.

Paul's argument in Romans 5:12-14 demands "all have sinned" when Adam sinned:

1. No MANIFEST law between Adam and Moses and where there is no manifest law there is no sin and yet death existed demonstrating that individual death has its origin with Adam. - v. 13

2. The death of those who do not sin after the likeness of Adam (infants, mentally incapable) prove that their death is attributed to the sin of Adam not to their own individual sin. - v. 14

 

[Fred's Wife]

Gerhard,

You are 100% in error here. Romans 5:13-19 is a very precise and developed argument to prove that Adam acted as the representative of the human race and in that one act all mankind sinned when Adam sinned. What do you think the incarnation was all about? Why didn't Jesus, the man, be born the normal way that John the Baptist was born? Sin is not inherited but the sin nature is inherited. Levi was in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizidek and yet Paul says that Levi paid the tithe. Abraham's action is attributed to Levi.

We are not only made sinners by representation when Adam sinned but we were made sinners by nature in Adam and that nature is manifested individuallythrough physical birth. We were not only made righteous by representation when Christ acted in our behalf but we were made righteous by nature "in Christ" that nature is manifested individually through new birth.

Paul's argument in Romans 5:12-14 demands "all have sinned" when Adam sinned:

1. No MANIFEST law between Adam and Moses and where there is no manifest law there is no sin and yet death existed demonstrating that individual death has its origin with Adam. - v. 13

2. The death of those who do not sin after the likeness of Adam (infants, mentally incapable) prove that their death is attributed to the sin of Adam not to their own individual sin. - v. 14

Thank you Dr. Walter...your explanation of "original sin" was very helpful.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.........
Sin is not inherited but the sin nature is inherited.
...................

GE:

Sin is not inherited but the sin nature is inherited, yes! But that's not all; the guilt of sin is also inherited -- verdict of the Law; and the reward for sin is also inherited -- death; and the propensity of sin is also inherited -- 'free will'. In short, TOTAL DEPRAVITY is what is inherited or the Law has NO "STRENGTH", is made of no effect, and a minor and side issue.

 

[BobRyan]

Sin is not inherited but the sin nature is inherited.

That much is true.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

GE:
----snip----
But that's not all; the guilt of sin is also inherited -- verdict of the Law;
----snip----

What about the Scriptures that say that every one would die for their own sin? (This, I believe was a change in the law made by God?)

Dueteronomy 24:16
Jeremiah 31:30
Ezekial 18:18

And, as all of these are OT...

It would seem that there was more Grace in OT times than many NT Believers allow?

Granted, when sin entered the world, death also entered the world.

I am not convinced that this (physical) death is a result of guilt as much as the corruption of the Creation due to the infiltration of sin.

Noentheless, we all are under Condemnation, for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, UNLESS we are Covered/Cleansed by the Blood of God's lamb, Jesus Christ.

This resulted in (Spiritual) Death because we have been tainted with Sin and no sin can enter God's Presence. I see this more as a "state" of being rather than a being guilty. As, I had no fault in Adam's sinning, or even my parents sinning.

I guess this also bring up the sense of Sin as a Diesese (sp?) and Sin as an Act. Both kill... But, one is a matter of being and the other of guilt.

In either case the end result is the same... As is the "Cure".

Of course some of us always have trouble figuring out whether we are talking about Physical Death or Spiritual Death!

 

[billwald]

>but when it says:
>>please note: that we, as a family, belong to no man-made denomination, attend no 21st century church nor subscribe to any man-made creed.

Then exactly what is the "we" to whom the document refers? A single biological family living under a biological patriarch?

 

[BobRyan]

What about the Scriptures that say that every one would die for their own sin? (This, I believe was a change in the law made by God?)

Dueteronomy 24:16
Jeremiah 31:30
Ezekial 18:18

And, as all of these are OT...

It would seem that there was more Grace in OT times than many NT Believers allow?

Ezek 18 and Jer 31 are speaking of the second death that we see in Rev 20.

They are saying that the saints will not die the second death. They make the same argument that Matt 18 makes where Christ talks about the servant that is forgiven much - but then refuses to forgive others JUST as he was forgiven. That person experiences forgiveness revoked and pays the full price of his debt.

in Christ,

Bob