"...we have access into this grace wherein we stand..."

[skypair]

As far as any discussion of "grace doctrines," they ought to start in Rom 5:1-2.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." What is this "grace" that we have access to AFTER we are "justified by faith?"

Rom 5:5 -- "...because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." Paul appears to stipulate that "grace" is the "love of God shed forth in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given us" by God AFTER we are justified.

So far in all our discussions of the "Doctrines of Grace," its proponents assume that grace and salvation + indwelling all fall like "pennies from heaven" upon the "elect" who do nothing that might "trigger" the whole rebirth process.

Right here Paul says that grace comes after justification which is what Rom 4 is all about. This, indeed, confirms John 6:37 wherein those whom God has given righteousness to are given to the Son and they come to Him -- FOR GRACE. (cf: Col 1:13)

Another way to lay this out is that those who believe in the "Grace Doctrines" LEAVE OUT justification as the initiating step in salvation. Why? The number one reason I see is they don't distinguish between soul and spirit. If they are one, there would be one action by God --- but if they are 2, there would be 2 actions by God (one conditional and the other unconditional).

But don't take my word for it. Read down into Rom 5:10 where Paul says "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled [justified in our souls] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved [sanctified in our spirits] by his life."

Or Rom 5:15 -- "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more [1] the grace of God [justification], and [2] the gift by grace [sanctification of the Spirit], which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." Even this far down into the discourse Paul sees TWO facets: grace of God which is His character and gift of grace which He gives to believers.

skypair

 

[PK]

Rom 5:20 -Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

 

[Allan]

But don't take my word for it. Read down into Rom 5:10 where Paul says "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled [justified in our souls] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved [sanctified in our spirits] by his life."

Or Rom 5:15 -- "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more [1] the grace of God [justification], and [2] the gift by grace [sanctification of the Spirit], which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." Even this far down into the discourse Paul sees TWO facets: grace of God which is His character and gift of grace which He gives to believers.

skypair

I'm not going to deal with the OP here. But I wanted to say that you already destroyed your own argument by placing INTO THE WORD your own opinion to MAKE IT SAY what you wanted without giving anything to validate it.

You have no scriptural support for your contention of [justified in our souls] and [sanctification of the Spirit] (the later you mean sanctification of our spirit). This is your postulation. Now if it is not but is in fact scriptural you need to set that in here as well so as to support your contention and reasoning for 'adding' to the word the way you did.

 

[skypair]

I'm not going to deal with the OP here. But I wanted to say that you already destroyed your own argument by placing INTO THE WORD your own opinion to MAKE IT SAY what you wanted without giving anything to validate it.

Oh. And here I thought people would go to the context if they were going to bring "railing accusation." Do you, in fact, see "saved by His death" and "saved by His life," Rom 5:10?? Does that not comport with my justification-sanctification "postulation?" Isn't, indeed, the life we receive in Christ an eternally justified spiritual life AND an "abundantly" sanctified physical "rebirth?"

And I posted the OP for those who believe in the "Grace Doctrines." They are only concerned about the unconditional grace aspect of salvation but not about the conditional justification aspect. The OP and scripture reference both point out that we cannot stand in their elected grace until we have repented of our own free will unto justification before God.

Perhaps you will understand that better if you consider the OT saints who HAVE NOT YET stood in the grace wherein we are sanctified. But they were justified before God, given His "righteousness" by faith in the OT gospel. IOW, justification is always conditional. Just because we both at once in the NT does not mean we can "back into" salvation by being sanctified then justified -- as in regeneration precedes faith!

Sorry you did not like my explanatory insertions. I ususally assume that C-A vocabularies have been so distorted that it is necessary to stipulate within the text exactly what concept is being dealt with.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Rom 5:20 -Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Exactly, PK. Sin doesn't "abound" in our eternal abode. It abounds in this flesh -- as does grace to the believer.

skypair

 

[Allan]

Oh. And here I thought people would go to the context if they were going to bring "railing accusation." Do you, in fact, see "saved by His death" and "saved by His life," Rom 5:10?? Does that not comport with my justification-sanctification "postulation?" Isn't, indeed, the life we receive in Christ an eternally justified spiritual life AND an "abundantly" sanctified physical "rebirth?"

And I posted the OP for those who believe in the "Grace Doctrines." They are only concerned about the unconditional grace aspect of salvation but not about the conditional justification aspect. The OP and scripture reference both point out that we cannot stand in their elected grace until we have repented of our own free will unto justification before God.

Perhaps you will understand that better if you consider the OT saints who HAVE NOT YET stood in the grace wherein we are sanctified. But they were justified before God, given His "righteousness" by faith in the OT gospel. IOW, justification is always conditional. Just because we both at once in the NT does not mean we can "back into" salvation by being sanctified then justified -- as in regeneration precedes faith!

Sorry you did not like my explanatory insertions. I ususally assume that C-A vocabularies have been so distorted that it is necessary to stipulate within the text exactly what concept is being dealt with.

skypair

Mmmm..... apparently you lept of the cliff not realizing it was only a 4 inch step. :laugh:

I was refering to your postulation of 'Justification of the soul' and 'sanctification of the spirit' as if they were supposed to be two seperate things. You have given no scriptural support for the seperation you give but posit your view carelessly. Therefore without any corroborating scriptural evindence for your contention it is only a spurious opinion at best. THAT is why I stated you need scripture to validate your contention if there is any. And you didn't show any such context to illistrate your contention either.

IOW - You need something more than your word that it is right as you see it and I was informing you that you gave nothing to anyone to give any credance nor validation to your thoughts

 

[skypair]

I was refering to your postulation of 'Justification of the soul' and 'sanctification of the spirit' as if they were supposed to be two seperate things.

Two difference covenants, Allan.

Yes, today we receive both at once but as Rom 4:22-5:5 show, we believe unto justification and receive unto sanctification. Those were the scriptures, Allan. You were meant to study them.

But regarding the 2 covenants -- the OT saints believed unto justification but received only a promise of "new life." Even you know that they didn't receive the "gift wherein WE stand ... the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

This is a significant distinction because, in the not too distant future, the expectation, the "hope," and gospel of salvation will be to the OT manner again. Trib saints ought not expect that they will be given "the grace where in we stand" in that time.

I'm reading "Global Warning" right now and it occurs to me that many will not recognize the new, old gospel preached by the 2 witnesses, etal. Have you considered that?

skypair