Well known Calvinist that have died for the faith

Let me get this straight...you are claiming as Calvinists Paul, a bunch of Romans, Augustine, the Waldenses and a bunch of other people who lived before Calvin systemetized his doctrine? Absurd! :laugh: :laugh:

One more reason to stay out of the C/A debates!

 

Thanks John. I recognized that a couple of those predated Calvin but I didn't want to be the one to "rub the cat's fur the wrong way" over it.

BTW, Dr Rogers used to say that if you feel like a cat whose fur is being rubbed the wrong way, the simple solution is to TURN AROUND! :laugh:

skypair

 

Alas, I just couldn't resist that post. It's bedtime here in Japan and I've been up too late already. Shouldn't post this late! Hopefully Jarthur001 will forgive me--but it still seems absurd! Maybe he meant it as a joke. :smilewinkgrin:

Oyasumi nasai. ("Rest well.")

 

The other day when Skypair asked the question about Calvinist martyrs, I thought immediately of all the Huguenots who died in the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre. Seventy thousand in all, we're told.

 

I read somewhere that the hatred of a certain pope against the Jansenians was especially fierce. Of course, how much more fierce could be expressed beyond killing so many Huguenots that there bodies clogged the flow of the water in the nearby river?

The shallow history of the reformation, like the history some of us learned as college freshmen, depicts a fuss over bad priestly behavior that got out of control. But it was the "reformers" of the like of Erasmus that was of this opinion. Luther clearly led a doctrinal reformation - a return, as you said, to Paulism, the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith.

The most shocking of all the martyrdoms for me was the story of Cranmer and Latimer. They were the king's buddies one day and were burned the next day.

A lot of people don't understand the complexity of the reformation in England. In the early days, both Catholics and Protestants were subject to persecution. The Church of England, once it was finally identified as a separate entity from the Roman church, didn't officially adopt protestant doctrines until much later. And then there was the back-and-forth between catholic and non-catholic monarchs.

It all makes me so grateful to be alive in this day and in this country, where we can preach without threat to our lives and well being.

 

And not just Calvinists of old (Jarthur, your post was excellent in bring the knowledge that the doctrines of grace have been held by Christians for centuries) but those who hold such doctrines today. One such couple, a Reformed Baptist couple, we learned this morning were recently murdered in Pakistan. They went to Pakistan to being a Church, and did, with many souls saved and among opposition of the Gospel. Two church members (obviously false brethren) murdered them.

I don't think Jarthur's post was to shed special light on calvinists as martyrs, but that such have stood the test of faith like others. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ, as others, preaching the Gospel and suffering for their faith.

I thank God too that in His Providence He has given us freedom from threat of loss of life in the USA generally. Things may not alwasy stay this way for us. If it changes, may the Lord prepare our hearts to be faithful unto death.

RB

 

Nope, sorry, still absurd. Just like reading pretrib doctrine into the church fathers would be.

I have read quite a bit of the church fathers, and there is no way possible to make those dudes Calvinists, I don't care how you define it. Absurd!!

Any why do so many of you guys immediately scream, "You don't understand our doctrine!" You don't have a clue what I know. I've never interacted with you.

 

Tell you what, Jarthur001. I'll take back my "absurd" if you can prove the TULIP from the Apostolic Fathers. Take your time, don't hurry, you may be studying awhile.

I'll give you a head start. The term "election" only occurs twice in the Apostolic Fathers, and here they are:

The Martyrdom of Polycarp 20:1--Ye indeed required that the things which happened should be shown unto you at greater length: but we for the present have certified you as it were in a summary through our brother Marcianus. When then ye have informed yourselves of these things, send the letter about likewise to the brethren which are farther off, that they also may glorify the Lord, who maketh election from His own servants.

The Epistle to Diognetus 4:4--Again, to vaunt the mutilation of the flesh as a token of election as though for this reason they were particularly beloved by God, is not this ridiculous?

 

Now, I am thoroughly impressed with what Jarthur replied to this with. But my comment in this regard is why in the world would I prove it from the fathers (as the nickname goes) as though they add an authority equal to Scripture, which I highly doubt you mean to do or is your intent.

Let things be proved from Scripture, for they, and they ALONE are profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness. Let us not follow Rome in this type of reasoning.

 

I'm going to just approach this from a historical viewpoint. I don't have any desire whatsoever to get into a theological discussion on these issues.

The difference here is that the trinity, while being a Biblical concept, is not a Biblical word. Election, however, is an entirely Biblical word, and I believe in the doctrine of election (though you probably would complain about how I stated it).

Now, we may find the teaching of the trinity in the church fathers, but we won't find the term. On the other hand, we do find the terms "election" and "elect" in the Apostolic Fathers, but we will not find the teaching. They don't quote or explain any verses on election and precious few on the word "elect"--almost without fail simply as a synonym for "believer." The doctrine was just not on the radar of the Apostolic Fathers, just as many other doctrines were not. I'm pre-mil and pre-trib, but believe me I'm not going to call any church fathers pre-mil and pre-trib.

You may find a little more in the later fathers, but I doubt it except for Augustine. And to call Augustine a Calvinist in my opinion is again, absurd! It is historical revisionism. Augustine influenced Calvin, but it is utterly impossible for Calvin to have influenced Augustine--unless you believe in a divine time machine. :smilewinkgrin:

Please know that I think your position is absurd, not you.

No, I have never attacked you on the missions thread, nor have I attacked anyone else on the missions thread, not a year ago, not ever. I was very upset at that time at people dragging theological debates onto the missions thread, but you will not find where I attacked you. I may have rebuked you--but if you think that is the same as an attack, you are sadly wrong.

 

Now, I have carefully read all that you posted from the Fathers, and remain totally unconvinced that what you quoted shows Calvinism. I personally could agree completely with everything you quoted from them, and I am certainly not a Calvinist. What you have not proven (and cannot) from the Fathers is limited atonement or irresistible grace. I'm disappointed. Surely you can do better than this.

Oh, wait, I forgot to mention. None of your quotes are from the Apostolic Fathers. They are all from later fathers. Nice try.

 

Oh, come now, you're smarter than this. The thread started out with a historical argument and I'm continuing in that vein. Are you going to then try to make it into a theological argument? The minute that happens the thread is hijacked and I'm out of here.

 

Touchy touchy. Have fun in your debating.

 

Annnnnd, that gets into a theological debate. If you want to hijack your own thread, that's fine with me. Just don't expect me to go along.

Let's try something else. You include Tyndale in your list of Calvinist martyrs. I'm very curious as to how you get that. Tyndale lived 1494-1536. Calvin lived 1509-1564. Furthermore, we have very little left that Tyndale wrote other than his NT translation, and I've never seen anything of it myself. So, how do you know Tyndale was a Calvinist?