Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[Van]

Hi Darrell C, thanks for being far more concise.

1) You must be born anew to enter the kingdom of God. The kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of God, the abode of God, not the millennial kingdom. John 3:5 The two phrases, kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are used interchangeably. You claim a difference to nullify John 3:5. I do not.

2) You claim the New birth cannot occur before Jesus sent the helper at Pentecost. I say the New birth did occur for the thief to be with Jesus in Paradise, the kingdom of heaven.

3) Paradise is not in Hades, no scripture supports that error.

4) When a person is spiritually born anew, they are made perfect, flawless, their sin burden is removed.

5) Scripture does not say when the Disciples were born anew. But since we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit now (after Pentecost) and the indwelling of the Disciples occurred at Pentecost, is is scripturally possible they were not born anew until Pentecost. But technically, the window starts with the death of Christ. Another point, when speaking of the possible, rather than what can be claimed as biblical, is that when Jesus left the tomb on Sunday physically, no one else (beside the thief and OT Saints in Abraham's bosom) was born anew until at least His ascension, and possibly Pentecost.

6) Romans 5:10 is referring to people who have been born anew, i.e. the time period is after Pentecost, therefore provides no support for reconciliation without being born anew.

7) I repeat, reconciliation is received when someone is placed in Christ and not before. We agree.

8) I repeat people are made perfect when they are born anew. No one is made perfect some other way. We are changed to the righteousness of God (flawless and perfect) when we are born anew.

9) We are saved when God credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ.

10) I do not create born anew folks that are not indwelt! Once we arise in Christ a new creation (made alive, regenerated, born anew, justified, reconciled, etc) we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. There is no discernible delay, where we could have folks who have been born anew, but not indwelt. But the sequence is clear, first God puts us in Christ, then we are made perfect, the circumcision of Christ, then we arise in Christ a new creation, and then and only then are we indwelt.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrell C, thanks for being far more concise.



10) I do not create born anew folks that are not indwelt! Once we arise in Christ a new creation (made alive, regenerated, born anew, justified, reconciled, etc) we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. There is no discernible delay, where we could have folks who have been born anew, but not indwelt. But the sequence is clear, first God puts us in Christ, then we are made perfect, the circumcision of Christ, then we arise in Christ a new creation, and then and only then are we indwelt.

Since many of the posts are missing at this point, thought I would just touch on this point again.

If men were born again before Pentecost, the clear point in time when the Comforter is seen as coming, then how does that not establish born again believers that are not indwelt?

This would require a belief that in view in Acts 1 is simply empowerment. That is not likely because we see that empowerment to preach the Gospel comes after they have received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, as well this being stated as Him coming unto the disciples:


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


And we see in Acts that when they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost, they did indeed go forth and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So do we, like some of our Charismatic brethren, make the Baptism with the Holy Ghost simply refer to empowerment, or, do we see this as the fulfillment of the Promise of the Father and the teaching of Christ? The teaching of Christ makes it pretty clear the Comforter will not come until He has gone...

John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Okay, just wanted to see how the functions work, primarily, so trying out 4 on this latter quote.

Anyway, the Comforter's Ministry coincides with Christ's return to Heaven, which should lead to a dogmatic conclusion that the Comforter, on the day of the Ascension...had not come. We see the Promise of the Father still unfulfilled at this point, and this is equated to the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Lastly, as mentioned, we see that "after He has come unto you they will receive power, distinguishing the two events in view (His coming and the empowering).

So how do we see the thief on the Cross born again, when the teaching of Christ distinguishes that when the Comforter is come He will take up residence in the believer, and contrasted with being with us, He will be in us...forever:

John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


So if the thief on the Cross was born again, he was born again apart from the Eternal Indwelling of the Holy Ghost. He had not yet come.


That brings us back to my previous question on this point, yet it is still embraced as what took place for the thief.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Were OT believers saved by God? yes, in same basis as we were, under the Cross of christ, but they did not have the Holy spirit in same gashion as we have now under new Covenant!

 

[Darrell C]

Were OT believers saved by God? yes, in same basis as we were, under the Cross of christ, but they did not have the Holy spirit in same gashion as we have now under new Covenant!

Many will admit to that, but, just as you say, they feel the Old Testament Saints were saved as we are today.

The question goes back to the significance of the Ministry of the Comforter. Is the difference between those ministries what I have posted above, or, were men eternally indwelt then as well? The thread Redemption of Israel (which like this one is missing quite a few pages right now) is an attempt to deny a Distinction between Israel and the Church. Many will speak of Spiritual Israel in the Old Testament, and I agree, they were saved from an eternal perspective, but, can their salvation be equated to the salvation that Christ obtained?

This one issue will, for some at least, bring an understanding of the distinctions drawn between those under Law, and those in relationship through the New Covenant. And one of those issues would be we see clearly that the transgressions of Israel were not redeemed until Christ died, which correlates to the Writer's teaching of perfection. I try to keep this point simply by pointing out that every Old Testament Saint, whether under Law or a Covenant era which preceded the Law...died only having atonement through sacrificed animals.

Not so for the Church, and the Old Testament Saint was perfected at the time of the Cross.

So it is an important issue, and one worth delving into. Those who do will not regret it.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Many will admit to that, but, just as you say, they feel the Old Testament Saints were saved as we are today.

The question goes back to the significance of the Ministry of the Comforter. Is the difference between those ministries what I have posted above, or, were men eternally indwelt then as well? The thread Redemption of Israel (which like this one is missing quite a few pages right now) is an attempt to deny a Distinction between Israel and the Church. Many will speak of Spiritual Israel in the Old Testament, and I agree, they were saved from an eternal perspective, but, can their salvation be equated to the salvation that Christ obtained?

This one issue will, for some at least, bring an understanding of the distinctions drawn between those under Law, and those in relationship through the New Covenant. And one of those issues would be we see clearly that the transgressions of Israel were not redeemed until Christ died, which correlates to the Writer's teaching of perfection. I try to keep this point simply by pointing out that every Old Testament Saint, whether under Law or a Covenant era which preceded the Law...died only having atonement through sacrificed animals.

Not so for the Church, and the Old Testament Saint was perfected at the time of the Cross.

So it is an important issue, and one worth delving into. Those who do will not regret it.


God bless.

God stated that under the new Covenant all of his own would then possess and receive the Holy Spirit, and that seems to imply that all did not under the Old One, even though they were "forgive/saved" by God!

 

[Darrell C]

God stated that under the new Covenant all of his own would then possess and receive the Holy Spirit, and that seems to imply that all did not under the Old One,

Agreed. This is a promise in the Old Testament, and not received/fulfilled when Christ made this statement:

Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


The "Promise of the Father" in view is in fact the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, as defined by Christ in v.5.

That which they had heard of Christ correlates to the Promise of the Father, which is highlighted in John 14 and 16.

Now if the Old Testament Saint was not Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which is a necessity for one to be "saved" under New Covenant condition, then we see a clear distinction between Eras.

even though they were "forgive/saved" by God!

While we can say they were "saved," and this by grace through faith, we do not impose a legal and eternal "forgiveness" to that provided to the Old Testament Saints.

Consider:

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


While those under Law received atonement for sin and remission of sin, that atonement and remission was simply temporal and temporary.

The Writer goes on to point this out:


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The perfection, or, completion in view here is in regards to atonement.

Those sacrifices were not complete, thus forgiveness was not complete, thus redemption was not made eternal through those sacrifices. They were continually offered:


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


The Old Testament Saint was not made perfect, made complete...in regards to atonement and remission of sins, because those sacrifices could not take away sin.

Christ's Sacrifice not only took away sin, but did so on an eternal basis for those who are sanctified through that Sacrifice.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

According to Watson's Biblical and Theological Dictionary the definition of "regeneration" is:

REGENERATION, a new birth; that work of the Holy Spirit by which we experience a change of heart. It is expressed in Scripture by being born again, Joh 3:7; born from above; being quickened, Eph 2:1; by Christ being formed in the heart, Ga 4:19; by our partaking of the divine nature, 2Pe 1:4. The efficient cause of regeneration is the divine Spirit. That man is not the author of it, is evident from Joh 1:12-13; 3:4; Eph 2:8,10. The instrumental cause is the word of God, Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:23; 1Co 4:15. The change in regeneration consists in the recovery of the moral image of God upon the heart;

If that definition is correct, it would be impossible for any OT saint to have been born again or regenerated. In the OT, the Holy Spirit "came upon" and "departed from" prophets. He did not indwell any individual until Pentecost. "The change in regeneration consists in the recovery of the moral image of God upon the heart." Furthermore, that change will continue as we will be "conformed to the image of Christ," during our lifetime as we submit to Him. This was impossible in the OT. Only the NT believer could be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and be so changed by the power of Christ.

 

[JamesL]

According to Watson's Biblical and Theological Dictionary the definition of "regeneration" is:

If that definition is correct, it would be impossible for any OT saint to have been born again or regenerated. In the OT, the Holy Spirit "came upon" and "departed from" prophets. He did not indwell any individual until Pentecost. "The change in regeneration consists in the recovery of the moral image of God upon the heart." Furthermore, that change will continue as we will be "conformed to the image of Christ," during our lifetime as we submit to Him. This was impossible in the OT. Only the NT believer could be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and be so changed by the power of Christ.

change in heart....recovery of moral image...
sounds too much like vague Protestantism, where regeneration is reduced to a change in demeanor, disposition, will, etc.

Regeneration is a cleansing of sin from the inner man. A healing. Washed, purified, made spotless, holy, perfect

And you're correct. By Christ's blood. By His stripes - at the cross, not before

 

[Darrell C]

change in heart....recovery of moral image...
sounds too much like vague Protestantism, where regeneration is reduced to a change in demeanor, disposition, will, etc.

Regeneration is a cleansing of sin from the inner man. A healing. Washed, purified, made spotless, holy, perfect

And you're correct. By Christ's blood. By His stripes - at the cross, not before

I would agree that many reduce the New Birth to something not much different than might occur should one go to a self-help seminar. That is why I view the New Birth to be linked with the indwelling of God which takes place at salvation.

We are new creatures, not renovations of the former self. We become what we were not when we were born physically.


God bless.