I have many Pastor Friends who believes the Holy Spirit only indwells New Testament believers,and Old Testament believers had the spirit come upon them. I disagree but wanted to kick this around to hear what you guys"and Gals" think. :type:
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Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
- Start date
Can you elaborate?:type:
Job 33: 23ff, "If there be a messenger (Christ)with him, an interpreter (the Holy Spirit), one among a thousand, to show unto man his uprightness: then he is gracious unto him, and says, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom...". Job speaking in 13:15, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him..." 13:16: "he also shall be my salvation..verse 18, "I know that I shall be justified...." Then in 2:8 Elihu speaks: "But there is a spirit IN man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding."
I believe Job was twice born, looking forward to the promise of God. I believe he experienced the Holy Spirit in his life. Some would like to divide up how God works differently in Old and New Testaments, when it is simply a matter of historical understanding based on the imformation at hand, and not the experience.
Cheers,
Jim
I believe Job was twice born, looking forward to the promise of God. I believe he experienced the Holy Spirit in his life. Some would like to divide up how God works differently in Old and New Testaments, when it is simply a matter of historical understanding based on the imformation at hand, and not the experience.
Cheers,
Jim
Jarthur001
Active Member
While in Job, lets add these verses to your list...
Job 33...
Speaking of the new birth IMHO
Well, if you hold to mankind fallen nature and inability to come to God on his own, then you must also believe that God has to bring sinners to himself through some divine means.
I believe this is the work of the Spirit on the sinner's heart. I believe this is what Paul point to in Rom 2:29:
"No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God."
And what Moses says here:
"The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." (Deut. 30:6)
I believe the Holy Spirit did 2 things.......Indwell and anoint with power. If anyone has not he spirit he is not his"Romans 8:9". By faith the saints of old trusted in God and were born again"indwelt" by the spirit. Having Gods Spirit empower you like Pentecost,Sampson,David are some examples of this. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirt from his mothers womb"indwelled". Jesus told peter"the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak".....did peter have the Spirit of God inside? Jesus said you would receive POWER when the holy spirit comes UPON YOU. Two different things I see in scriptures.
When you read the book Judges every time Sampson had to do something for God, the Spirit came upon him.
Regarding John the Baptist, his case is a unique one, hardly the norm.
Romans 8:9 is New Covenant language.
Find me an Old Covenant expression.
Marcia
Active Member
TC, I agree with you! Imagine that! :smilewinkgrin:
Not very often! :laugh:
Marcia
Active Member
The Holy Spirit did not indwell OT saints or people because we see cases where the Spirit was taken away, such as with Saul. For NT believers, when we are indwelt, the Holy Spirit is never taken away. Only with NT believers is the Holy Spirit promised as a "pledge."
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph. 1.13, 14
Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy (Ghost,...of Jesus) whom the Father will send in my name,
Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (Comforter/Holy Ghost)
God attempted to speak "DIRECTLY" to Israel at Mt Sinai, but they told Moses to let God speak to him then he (prophets) could speak to Israel, "Lest we die".
Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Of course they again rejected God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them through Jesus.
An understanding of the "Trinity" is necessary to understand the scriptures.
The "comforter", who is greater than he who is in the world (Satan) must be "taken out of the way" "BEFORE" the "oppressor" (satan) can have power back on his side to oppress the trib saints. (Pre trib rapture)
But that "Tribulation" has been ordained by God.
You lost me along the way.
In Judges the spirit came upon Sampson....and Gideon,etc...I agree and said its 2 different things here. Power for service as God wills,and being indwelt by the spirit"born again". Romans 8 is not just "new",when you listen to the Lord teach He is mostly giving examples that the Old Testament had there all along"as did Paul". Examples of the spirit "IN" Old Testament Saints?? So the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him (Num 27:18)(also Caleb Numbers 14:21.) When he turned his back to leave Samuel, God gave him another heart. And all these signs came to pass that day (1Sa 10:9). The Spirit EMPOWERING is totally different than just being born again. Jesus had the Holy Spirit come upon him for the the beginning of His public ministry. The apostles has that happen too in the upper room. Just like Sampson,Gideon,Elijah ,etc.
And then there are exceptions. I quite agree.
But Marcia is correct, only in the NT is the Holy Spirit seen as a pledge and a seal.
The NT speaks of things hidden from OT saints but only revealed to NT saints. The full ministry of the Holy Spirit is one such.
Well I see the Old Testament reveals stuff tucked away we didn't see before we got "Born Again". :applause:
Sorry I don't see where you are applying this to the topic" Eph 3:1-6". The topic is weather Saints were born again. I think scripture shows this,and when the spirit "left them"this was Gods power upon them. If they lost the Holy Spirit totally"indwelling" what would cause them to love,follow,desire God. By nature the mind is hostel towards God.