Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?

[EdSutton]

Howdy Ed..."May I suggest you don't give up your 'day-job' just yet, as long as it's still paying the rent." Sorry Ed I think your wrong in your view of the scriptures on this topic,but I won't tell ya "don't give up your job":wavey: Also John Piper has written about the Saints of Old being born again if you like to Google it. Anyways it seems to be half and half "down the middle" thus far of the opinions here.

I'm not giving up my own day-job, so that is a bit irrelevant, I'd say.

However your tag-line states that your job is to do permanent damage to my own ignorance. Since I have yet to see any Scripture cited to tell me that the two phrases "indwelt by the Spirit" and "born again" are the same identical thing, I guess my own ignorance may be a bit more persistent, than some. Incidentally, one of my own two spiritual gifts is also that of the gift of teacher (not that of pastor and teacher, BTW, for they likewise are not the same identical thing), which I received at the point of my salvation more than 45 years ago, as well.

FTR, I fully agree that the saints under the OT economy were born again/anew/from above (however you would prefer to render "ανωθεν" in Jn. 3:3,7). I also agree that one is only 'spiritually newborn,' in any economy via the agency of the Holy Spirit. And I agree that these OT saints were just as saved as anyone is today, and that is by believe/faith in God, through which they received God's imputed righteousness. (Rom. 4:1-8)

That said, I just do not see anywhere that Scripture tells us that the OT saints were "baptized in the Spirit" or that this 'baptism in the Spirit' refers to anyone who is not a part of the Church, the body of Christ, which I believe Scripture teaches to be a distinct and a specific entity, of more than one entities, in the Kingdom of God.

Ed

P.S. Language Cop says the word in the title question should be spelled "Testament."

 

[EdSutton]

I guess "eternal security" only existed after Pentecost. I'm sure that scripture is plain in some book.

No, but "baptism in the Spirit" only existed after Pentecost, as I read Scripture. That baptism doesn't equal to "eternal security" which every believer has always had, by faith alone. (Jn. 5:24; Rom. 4:1-8)

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Ex 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Ge 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

God the Father is a "Spirit" on which "NO FLESH" can behold and still live,

Yet when God takes on a "Physical form" (Angel of the lord/God/Jesus) he can be seen "face to face" without the flesh dying.

But the differences between them is much more,

In the OT, God spoke to people through prophets,
In the NT, Jesus speaks "Directly" to people. (Holy Ghost)

OT, God made promises/prophecy
NT, Jesus fulfilled promises/prophecy

OT, No comforter/indwelling spirit
NT, Comforter/Holy Ghost

OT, died, present in Abraham's bosom
NT, absent from body, present with the lord.

OT, under the law
NT, not under the law, but "Grace".

I've had people tell me they understand the "Trinity", yet they don't believe in a "pre Trib rapture", how can that be??

The rapture ends this period of Grace, Israel goes back under the law and prophets (two witnesses) the "comforter" is taken out of the way, power is back on the side of the oppressor, and under the law, anyone caught in "Adultery" as in whoring after other gods, which Israel did in rejecting Jesus, will result in them "literally" being "put to death".

Under Grace, we die "Spiritually", because Jesus suffer our chastisement/stripes in his flesh,

but under the law, you "literally" die, suffering chastisement/stripes in your flesh, the reason Satan is given power to literally kill Trib saints.

But here's the point, Law and Grace can not function at the same time, same time frame, Just as the Law and prophets ended with Jesus/grace period,

The law and prophets can't return until the "fulness of the Gentiles/Grace period".

The "Trinity", and it's differences, doesn't just explain "God", it explains scripture as well,

Which is why I ask, how can you understand the Trinity and not a pre trib rapture???

Personally, I'm gonna' not get too close to anyone who will tell me that they "understand" how God can be one God, yet three persons, at the same time.

I kinda' don't wanna' be too close to where any lightning may strike, you see.

Ed

 

[gb93433]

So, there is salvation after death! Maybe there is a purgatory.

Could it be that is where Sheol fits in?

 

[Jim1999]

A so-called "rapture" is nowhere in my scriptures. There is a second coming of Jesus, but a rapture is a myth.

The OT law never saved anyone. If anything, it pointed man in the direction that God is perfect and the law delineates man's imperfection before God.

By grace are we saved......Period.

The Holy Spirit's ministry did not begin with Pentecost, but continued in Jesus' physical absence, as was stated by our Lord to begin with....I will not leave you without God's presence......

Job, the oldest book in the OT, clearly shows that Job understood grace and the security in the Lord, in that he was assured that he would stand on the earth and see the Saviour. David was assured that he would see his dead son in heaven. Seems like eternal security to me.

Understand the trinity? We can do our best with human analogies, but we will always come up short. There is sufficient scripture to assure us about a trinity, but always comes short on details. This should not prevent us from trying, as we try to understand God.

Terminology may have changed in the NT, as it does in modernity, but the theology remains the same, with a little more enlightenment.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Crabtownboy]

Can a person be a saint and not be saved?

 

[Me4Him]

Personally, I'm gonna' not get too close to anyone who will tell me that they "understand" how God can be one God, yet three persons, at the same time.

Ex 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

God the Father is a "Spirit" on which "NO FLESH" can behold and still live,



Ge 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.


Yet when God takes on a "Physical form" (Angel of the lord/God/Jesus) he can be seen "face to face" without the flesh dying.



Can you explain how man (flesh) can't look at one part of the Trinity without dying, (God the Father)

Yet man can look at another part of the trinity, without dying. (God the Son)

Israel believes in the "Father God", but not the "Son God", (Jesus) consequenctly, they reject about half of the Bible, NT,

So it quite easy to see that failing to understand the Trinity, is also a failure to understand the Bible as a whole.

Jim said he couldn't find a rapture in the Bible, but if he applied to Trinity to scripture, and the "Differences" in the Trinity, he'd know Israel goes back under the L/P of the OT during the trib, same as the first 69 weeks of Daniels prophey.

The "Comforter", being present in the world/believers, forces Satan to flee when we resist him, but there is no "comforter" to protect trib saints,

"HE" (Comforter) is taken out of the way".

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

The "LAST TRUMP" (voice) of the Comforter Rapture the Church, the "fulness of "GRACE", church/Gentiles ends, and Israel returns back under the law and prophets (two witnesses, Moses/Elijah) during the trib to finish Daniel's prophey.

My advice, take a hard look at the differences in God's method of leadership in the OT and Jesus's leadership in the NT,

Because the world can't be under the "LAW" (and prophets) and under "GRACE", (church) at the same time.

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (at the same time)

I kinda' don't wanna' be too close to where any lightning may strike, you see.

Ed

Yes, but when it does strike, you can "SEE" things you normally couldn't. :laugh::laugh:

 

[gb93433]

A so-called "rapture" is nowhere in my scriptures. There is a second coming of Jesus, but a rapture is a myth.

The OT law never saved anyone. If anything, it pointed man in the direction that God is perfect and the law delineates man's imperfection before God.

By grace are we saved......Period.

I like your response.

Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."

 

[Jedi Knight]

"No, but "baptism in the Spirit" only existed after Pentecost, as I read Scripture." I see the Power from on high in the Old Testament too as I see scripture. Also the word trinity is NOWHERE in the scripture but after knowing Gods word you cannot help but draw the conclusion. Same with this topic....I can not say ONE SCRIPTURE says it all,but look at the big picture you see Saint were indweel anointed and clothed with power from on high.:type: And Ed ,learn to be more light hear:thumbsup:ted when reading my sig ehh.:tongue3:

 

[Jedi Knight]

I hope you guys are having fun fellowshiping and studying. Please don't be rude if we don't see eye to eye"ahem Ed".