What about carnal christians?

[xdisciplex]

I read Romans 7 and 8 today. I always thought that the person described in Romans 7 which struggles with sin and which doesn't do what she wants but does what she doesn't want is a christian. But I'm not so sure anymore.
What if this person Paul talks about is the normal,unsaved man who struggles with sin? What if this is not a christian?
Because usually when I read this passage then it makes me feel better because I feel a lot like this person which Paul describes but what if Paul is not describing a christian? Oh boy...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

But verse 22 says that this person delights in the law of God. Does an unbeliever or an orthodox jew delight in the law of God after the inward man?
Some people say that Paul is talking about himself before his conversion, could this be true?

So I read until verse 25 and after reading verse I felt better again because of verse 24 and verse 25.
Verse 23 sounds as if christians would always struggle with this and do what they don't want to do. But then Paul goes on in Romans 8 and says that the Spirit of life made him free from the law of sin!!!!

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Do you know what this means? This means that now he's no longer in this vicious circle where he sins even though he doesn't want to! This means that if you felt good after reading Romans 7 and felt "understood" and thought that what you experience is normal then you're wrong because in Romans 8 Paul says that he's free from it now! But I am not free from it.
And what also scared me is this:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Does this mean that a christian who walks after the flesh will be condemned?
Does this mean you are only not condemned if you walk after the spirit?
But what about carnal christians? Will they be condemned?
Some bible are even missing the last part, they only say that there is no condemnation for those which are in Christ Jesus and you read this and think: Great!
But they are missing the last part which says "who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit".
Now I'm scared again. It's always the same, whenever I read the bible I end up scared and confused.
Somehow it also doesn't make sense. First Paul says that our flesh is crucified and dead, then why should he later on say that we will always keep on sinning and do what we don't want to do? What if Romans 7 is not about christians and the christians read this and feel good because they think that this is about them and that what they experience is normal and that they will always sin and struggle with sin and they are totally wrong and the truth is that they are either carnal or maybe not even real christians and then they die and go to hell? This is scary.

 

[BobRyan]

He is a saved person for the NATURAL man does not even DESIRE to fulfill the Law of God. They do NOT have the LAW "Written on the heart" for that only happens in the NEW Covenant which is in fact the ONE Gospel for all time.

However when the born-again Christian is confronted with the problem identified in Romans 7 -- they are led to the "walk by the Spirit" solution of Romans 8.

Many times your posts seem to be at the point of the born-again Christian awakened in the New Birth to the problem of Romans 7 but not stepping into the Romans 8 solution.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DQuixote]

Paul is a follower of Christ. His discussion in 7 and 8 is explanatory, for your benefit. He explains the battle between flesh and spirit for the reader.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"who walk not after the flesh" is descriptive of those who have been born again -- they now follow Christ. They used to walk after the flesh, but now they "walk after the Spirit."

 

[xdisciplex]

But can a christian not also walk after the flesh? Isn't this what being carnal is all about? To walk after the flesh?
And this would mean that carnal christians will be condemned.

And what I also don't understand is the whole walking in the spirit stuff.
Does this mean that Romans 7 is not the normal state of a christian and that as a real christian you no longer struggle with sin because you are dead to sin and your flesh is crucified? These are all things which Paul says!
But then again christians say that the flesh isn't really dead or that we will always struggle until the end but this seems to simply relativize everything Paul says. It's kinda like: Well, the bible says these things but they aren't to be taken literal...

I don't understand this. Either the flesh is dead and crucified and then it is indeed dead and crucified or it is not. There is no middle way. But if the flesh is dead and crucified then why do I still sin and why do I still sense the flesh? I mean if the flesh was dead then I wouldn't sense it anymore, right? Then I also wouldn't act out of the flesh and later on feel guilty, right?

Somehow all these things don't fit together. I don't know what to think about this. There are radical christians which simply say that the bible says that the flesh is crucified and this means that you don't sin anymore and if you don't accept this then they simply ask wether this is in the bible and then you say yes and then they say that you either believe the bible or you don't. But this radical approach also cannot be the right way, they are simply using the bible against everybody who doesn't agree with them and try to make everybody feel bad as if he didn't believe the bible. But on the other hand what's it good for when you simply blind yourself to reality and do as if everything is fine and the truth is that you still sin? Everybody who claims that he doesn't sin anymore is deceived. This means that those which stand on these verses and think that they are showing themselves as totally faithful are actually also wrong. But what's the solution? Not taking everything in the bible literally?

 

[DQuixote]

Paul compares the old man and the new man. Your status, your standing before God, is walking in or after the Spirit, once you are born again. Your status or standing is no longer walking in or after the flesh. God's forgiveness for your sin and sins at the Cross was total. Not only forgiven, but forgotten. God will never bring them to your attention again, in this life or the life hereafter. You have been set free from sin.

Will you still sin? Yes. Does that jeopardize your walk? No. How do you make amends for sin? 1 John 1:9.

The scriptures are clear. You cannot ask any question that is not answered in the bible. You need to stop thinking up so many different situations and then chasing after all sorts of irrational conclusions. Seek a mentor.

 

[J. Jump]

xdisciplex do not be deceived what a man sows he will reap. Now if a man that has been saved could only reap to the Spirit which is what some would have you believe then why would he need to be warned not to reap to the flesh?

Of course you can still walk after the flesh. Just because someone is saved, does not mean they are walking after the Spirit. How absurd to say that when a saved person sins they are walking after the Spirit.

 

[DQuixote]

No one said that, Jump. You're confused. Go to bed. Sleep it off. You clearly do not rightly divide the word of truth. Your response only adds to the confusion of xdx. Leave him alone. He has enough problems without you adding to the mix. You talk about not understanding Greek while you need to work on simple English verb and noun phrases.

There is a HUGE difference between my status, my standing before God, and what I do daily in the flesh. Nothing can alter my standing before him. I am OSAS. I have been bought with a price. When he looks at me he sees not what I used to be, he sees Jesus. That's my status, my standing, clothed in his righteousness. While I do things that are displeasing to God, my status, my standing before him remains the same: saved. I do not become unsaved. In like manner my status, my standing before him does not change depending upon my moment-by-moment behavior. My status-standing is a constant.

 

[J. Jump]

No one said that, Jump. You're confused. Go to bed. Sleep it off. You clearly do not rightly divide the word of truth. Your response only adds to the confusion of xdx. Leave him alone. He has enough problems without you adding to the mix. You talk about not understanding Greek while you need to work on simple English verb and noun phrases.

There is a HUGE difference between my status, my standing before God, and what I do daily in the flesh. Nothing can alter my standing before him. I am OSAS. I have been bought with a price. When he looks at me he sees not what I used to be, he sees Jesus. That's my status, my standing, clothed in his righteousness. While I do things that are displeasing to God, my status, my standing before him remains the same: saved. I do not become unsaved. In like manner my status, my standing before him does not change depending upon my moment-by-moment behavior. My status-standing is a constant.

DQ you once again show your inability to read and understand someone's post.

I never said ANYTHING about being saved and then unsaved. I just got through explaining to Bob Ryan that Scripture clearly indicates that once we are saved we are saved for ever and ever.

What you and many others like fail to understand is that we are still accountable for the sins that we commit. They don't just magically disappear. Reaping what you sow has NOTHING to do with eternal salvation. Reaping what you sow come after eternal salvation is a done deal.

Walking in the Spirit is to be a present reality not a final standing thing. We are to daily/moment-by-moment walking in the Spirit. But just because we are saved doen't mean we WILL walk in the Spirit. Again that's why we are commanded to do it, because the possibilty is there that we won't.

Maybe instead of trying to be so comical with your non-helpful one liners, maybe you could try reading for understanding. And if you don't understand what you read try asking for clarification before making basless accusations. That would certainly be a novel idea for some on here.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 8 shows how to win the struggle.

Romans 7 shows how to recognize that it exists to start with - at the point of the New Birth.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[EdSutton]

No one said that, Jump. You're confused. Go to bed. Sleep it off. You clearly do not rightly divide the word of truth. Your response only adds to the confusion of xdx. Leave him alone. He has enough problems without you adding to the mix. You talk about not understanding Greek while you need to work on simple English verb and noun phrases.

There is a HUGE difference between my status, my standing before God, and what I do daily in the flesh. Nothing can alter my standing before him. I am OSAS. I have been bought with a price. When he looks at me he sees not what I used to be, he sees Jesus. That's my status, my standing, clothed in his righteousness. While I do things that are displeasing to God, my status, my standing before him remains the same: saved. I do not become unsaved. In like manner my status, my standing before him does not change depending upon my moment-by-moment behavior. My status-standing is a constant.

Your 'shot' at J. Jump was really uncalled for, here, for he said nothing about any Greek, nor did he post anything that is Biblically incorrect here, that I can see.

Ed

 

[DQuixote]

Ed ....... in another thread JJump challenged another poster to look at the Greek text in order to better understand the meaning of a word in scripture. That's my reference. My response was for JJump to learn a little more about English, as in positions which are static, unchanging. I used "saved" as an example of a word in scripture that is static; once applied it does not become "unsaved." The title of this thread is static. It is unchanging. As a sentence is typed below, it is not static. It is changing.

JJump is confusing the activity of daily sins with one's static, unchanging position/status/standing in Christ. He'll see that eventually, I think.

Before receiving Christ as Savior, one's position was "walking after the flesh." After receiving Christ as Savior, one's position is "walking after the spirit." Positionally, that is static, unchanging. One's static position, one's standing, one's status, before Christ, does not change. Goal posts are static; the guy running with the ball is not.

Comitting daily sins is altogether another issue. They are, if you will, constantly flowing, changing. Of course we all sin, and that daily. That is the very opposite of static. Daily sins are a verb, if you will, while the Believer's status-standing is fixed, is static, a noun, if you will.

Now some of our English grammarians on the BB can come in and state that in far fewer words.

JJumps response to my post indicates that he and I are talking past each other. He is the one who is calling me out of the pulpit, based solely upon his misunderstanding.

:wavey:

 

[EdSutton]

J.Jump's response to this thread was directed to xdiscilpex, alone, as it clearly stated in the post. It is not unreasonable to expect to keep this, or any thread on track, and not try to score 'brownie points', IMO. There are more than enough "hi-jacks" without adding to the number, again, IMO.
And Language Cop will keep his mouth shut, here.

Ed

 

[DQuixote]

xdx, you must understand scripture in context. The bible itself is a marvelous context. When you read it from that POV, your standing before God is "a follower of Christ," born again, "a walker in the spirit."

DQ
Language Specialist

:laugh: