What About "Saint Patrick"?

[Orvie]

I've been reading two messages recently claiming he was actually a Baptist, instead of a Catholic. One author, John Wimbish must be a Landmarker as he claims the Baptist church existed then, while the other, Harry Irondide seems to say that Baptistic teachings were around then (if I read them right).
What do you say?
And- Where does the tradition of the green come from? I've heard that Protestants in Ireland today wear Orange instead. any thoughts? thanks!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

He was not a Baptist. I am doing a careful research of his theology. He was a born again Christian with a passion for souls and the people of Ireland. I blogged a couple of thoughts at http://naaspreacher.baptistblog.org He beleived in monks and monestaries. He also believed in the virtue of women remaining celebate.

The green is for the Irish (not Catholic) community. The orange is for those of British ancestry. The white in the flag represents the peace between the two communities. The most fervent Irish nationalists use a green white and gold flag.

The British loyalists have their own day in Northern Ireland on July 12.

Been here going on 12 years and have done a bit of research on the subjects.

 

[Ransom]

Orvie said:

I've been reading two messages recently claiming he was actually a Baptist, instead of a Catholic.

He was not a Baptist, as the Baptist denomination (indeed, any denomination) did not exist in his day. He was a Catholic Christian in an era when "catholic" actually meant something.

Patrick was a British Christian who was kidnapped by pirates as a youth and taken as a slave to Ireland, where he tended sheep. His master was a Druidic priest. When he escaped, he spent a number of years in a monastery, but was burdened to return to Ireland as a missionary. His mission to Ireland was quite successful, as you can probably deduce from the fact that he is the patron saint of the Irish.

He was not the first missionary to Ireland, but he was the most influential; it was his work that was largely responsible for the permanence of the church in Ireland.

The Irish also sent missionaries back to Scotland, England, and Wales. When Augustine of Canterbury was sent by the pope to England, he discovered that Christianity already had a strong foothold there thanks to the legacy of Patrick.

St. Patrick's own Confessio (his testimony) is available online and makes for some good reading.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

However, his work did not last long. In less than 100 years the church he established had quickly re-incorporated the paganism that existed before he arrived. Druid gods and goddesses became church saints.

He seemed a bit weak in discipleship and mentoring.

 

[rsr]

Nothing really to add to C4K's and Ransom's comments.

However, the Protestant use of orange derives from William of Orange, the Protestant king of England who defeated Catholic forces at the Battle of the Boyne referenced above.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

One thing for sure - there will be no Irishman wearing orange tomorrow

.

Green is the colour of the day - and wearing a sprig of shamrock is the tradition.

Plenty of orange in Northern Ireland in July though.

There was a riot recently in Dublin when a group of orangemen attempted a legal parade. Nothing religious or political - just a bunch of drunken thugs.

 

[samarelda]

Thanks for all this information. My daughter was born on St. Patrick's Day 11 years ago and ever since I have been curious about who he really was. I learned a few years ago that he was a born again christian and was so happy to hear that. Thanks, ransom, for the link to his testimony. Anybody else know of any other good websites that tell about his life and work? My daughter would appreciate it. It will be green eggs and ham again for breakfast tomorrow. Birthday tradition along with receiving a new shamrock plant for her birthday each year. She has quite a variety. No Irish in her--Norwegian and German!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

There are loads of websites - just google his name.

Be aware though, the only two totally factual documents are Confessio and Letter to Coroticus. Myth and legend come into the story very quickly. The first biography did not come for about 100 years and it was full of fanciful stories like Patrick walking on water and starting a fire with icicles.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The first biography did not come for about 100 years and it was full of fanciful stories like Patrick walking on water and starting a fire with icicles.

He did that too?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Some historians are not even sure there was an actual Patrick, others say that there were 2,3,5, or even 7 different Patricks.

It does appear however that there was a Patricius, born somewhere on the island of Great Britain, or ministered in Ireland after he had been a captive here. Most say the time period was roughly the middle of the fifth century.

 

[Ulsterman]

Originally posted by C4K:
The British loyalists have their own day in Northern Ireland on July 12.

Actually, Roger, Protestants in Northern Ireland do celebrate St. Patrick's Day. In fact the church at Saul, Co. Down, where he is reputed to be buried is an Anglican Church, and Slemish Mountain where he is said to have reared sheep or pigs (can't remember which) lies in the loyalist heartlands of Co. Antrim. It appears his ministry was largely conducted in the North of the island. Protestant schools are given St. Patrick's day off, and the saint is honoured. It is one of the few traditions shared by both sides of the sectarian divide.

The 12th July celebrations are not religious, but based on the historical dispute between the two traditions and the supremacy of King William of Orange (hence the orange) over King James II at the Battle of the Boyne, which, just to muddy the waters further, was celebrated by the Pope of the time by the casting of a medal in honour of William's victory.

So there we have it - the Protestants in Northern Ireland celebrate a saint who is traditionally (though erroneously) viewed as Roman Catholic, whilst the Pope of 1690 celebrated a Protestant victory over his own people. Funny old world.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Sorry I wasn't clear - the contention was that Protestants in Ireland wear orage today. My point was that orange is for a different day.

The clearest thing about Patrick is that nothing is really clear about him >

 

[Salty]

Originally posted by C4K:
One thing for sure - there will be no Irishman wearing orange tomorrow

.

Even in Syracuse, NNE is wearing ORANGE today.

The question is: do we root for Texas thru the rest of the NCAA

Anyways, best of luck to the G-Man

Salty

 

[Debby in Philly]

Great article, Roger. I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Patrick, today being my birthday. All of my birthday cakes as a child were green and decorated with shamrocks, even though there's Irish only on my great-grandmother's side. His story is an exciting and challenging one, which I frequently share with my Sunday School kids. I've always thought that Baptists miss something of value by not knowing the stories of some of the early "saints" for fear of association with Catholicism. There is much to learn from them.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Happy Birthday Debby!

There is a lot to learn from Patrick if we take the time to separate the fact from the fiction.

There is no evidence that he used the shamrock to teach on the Trinity and certainly nothing to support him driving out the snakes. Though I do wonder where they all went .

 

[Orvie]

Thanks to everyone for your help, esp C4K, I was able to incorporate his life into our lesson tonight at our Youth Group. Muchas Thankso