What are some of the essential doctrines of the christian faith?

[tragic_pizza]

GE:

"If they believed not Moses and the prophets ...." they would still believe in Me, is what you are saying.

Uh... What?

 

[BobRyan]

Eli said -
As for Mark 7, the point that Jesus was pointing out was the Hypocrisy of the Jews, and Jesus was not complaining that Jews and Gentiles must keep the Law. Such claim was brought in by the Jews in ACts 15.

Let's take a look at Mark 7 - it shows that Christ argues strongly against any deviation from the OT text. In fact He declares that doing so "invalidates worship".


Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS[/b], BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT [b]IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''[/b]
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.[/b]
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER[/b]'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

 

[Eliyahu]

Let's take a look at Mark 7 - it shows that Christ argues strongly against any deviation from the OT text. In fact He declares that doing so "invalidates worship".


Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS[/b], BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT [b]IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''[/b]
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.[/b]
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER[/b]'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

That is the ultimate problem with Sabbath keepers. Those hypocrites were keeping the Sabbath, weren't they?

Yet, Jesus was speaking about the whole-hearted obedience and worship which is possible only when we follow the Holy Spirit, not the Law.

Jesus was not commanding to keep the Law there.

Look at the woman caught in the adultery ( John 8:1-11)

Was He telling them to stone her? Why wasn't He commanding the people to keep the Law by stoning her?

You may have stoned her first as you had kept the Law had you lived there at that time.

Was Jesus speaking that Anyone who speaks evil of parents must be put to death?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Let's take a look at Mark 7 - it shows that Christ argues strongly against any deviation from the OT text. In fact He declares that doing so "invalidates worship".


Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS[/b], BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT [b]IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''[/b]
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.[/b]
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER[/b]'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

That is the ultimate problem with Sabbath keepers. Those hypocrites were keeping the Sabbath, weren't they?

Yes - and they also believed in the one true God of Creation

And they also believed that Adultery was really wrong Just as God's Word said.

John the Baptizer held to all of the above - as did David and Isaiah.

And "your point is"???

Yet, Jesus was speaking about the whole-hearted obedience and worship which is possible only when we follow the Holy Spirit, not the Law.

Are you quoting something from Mark 7 or simply taking off on your own direction?

What is the specific charge Christ makes against them and what is it that is invalidating their worship "according to the words in the text of Mark 7" this time. (Which is why I keep starting off by saying "let's take a look at Christ's WORDS in Mark 7")

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The point left as an exercise for the reader is that when you read the highlighted sections "in blue" you see Christ is upholding the Word of God rather than teaching His followers to ignore it.

In fact all of the NT writers uphold "Scripture" as something to be obeyed rather than ignored.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
in Isaiah 66 refering to events long AFTER the Cross "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

I already explained you about this.
From Sabbath to Sabbath means EVERYDAY, Not on each Sabbath.

There is no example in all of scripture where anyone suggests that the OT idiom for "daily" is "From Sabbath TO Sabbath".

No Bible scholar that I know of takes that strained suggestion seriously.

By direct "contrast" we have Sunday keeping Christian Bible scholars making this point--

Isaiah 66:23

Jamieson Fausset Brown
23. Literally, "As often as the new moon (shall be) in its own new moon," that is, every month (Zec 14:16).
[b]Sabbath--which is therefore perpetually obligatory on earth. [/b]
all flesh-- (Ps 65:2; 72:11).
before me--at Jerusalem (Jer 3:16, 17).
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=066

Matthew Henry Isaiah 66:23

6. That the public worship of God in religious assemblies shall be carefully and constantly attended upon by all that are thus brought as an offering to the Lord, Isaiah 66:23. This is described in expressions suited to the Old-Testament dispensation, to show that though the ceremonial law should be abolished, and the temple service should come to an end, yet God should be still as regularly, constantly, and acceptably worshipped as ever. Heretofore only Jews went up to appear before God, and they were bound to attend only three times a year, and the males only; but now all flesh, Gentiles as well as Jews, women as well as men, shall come and worship before God, in his presence, though not in his temple at Jerusalem, but in religious assemblies dispersed all the world over, which shall be to them as the tabernacle of meeting was to the Jews.

God will in them record his name, and, though but two or three come together, he will be among them, will meet them, and bless them. And they shall have the benefit of these holy convocations frequently, every new moon and every Sabbath, not, as formerly, at the three annual feasts only.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

I added this to my previous post:

Was Jesus speaking that Anyone who speaks evil of parents must be put to death?

We can see the daily worshiping practice when the people were full of Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

It was not limited to the Sabbath there!

 

[Eliyahu]

Yes - and they also believed in the one true God of Creation

And they also believed that Adultery was really wrong Just as God's Word said.

John the Baptizer held to all of the above - as did David and Isaiah.

And "your point is"???

in Christ,

Bob

My point is this:

If Jesus wanted us to keep the Law, then even the stoning should have been there. The perfect, sinless person Jesus should have stoned her ( John 8:1-11) there. Jesus should have asked the people to bring the Man who committed the adultery with her, then Jesus should have stoned them both, did He?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Let's take a look at Christ's Words in Mark 7 - it shows that Christ argues strongly against any deviation from the OT text. In fact He declares that doing so "invalidates worship".


Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS[/b], BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT [b]IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''[/b]
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.[/b]
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER[/b]'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

Eliyahu

I added this to my previous post:

Was Jesus speaking that Anyone who speaks evil of parents must be put to death?

We can see the daily worshiping practice when the people were full of Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:

I will grant you that these are also interesting texts to explore - but I was asking that we look at the actual Words of Christ in Mark 7.

I still think we need to be able to do that.

As for John the baptizer not stoning people pre-cross for various violations - John did not come in the role as "judge" and Christ said that He did not come in that role either. Also God placed Israel under subjugation to Roman law at this time.

But those are just side-trails. The main issue is the Words of Christ in Mark 7 and learning from the details HE gives -- looking at HIS argument we see HIM saying that devation from HIS Word the Ten Commandments - invalidates worship.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I

Acts 2:

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

It was not limited to the Sabbath there!

I certainly agree that they met daily in Acts 2 to celebrate communion. But in those cases they are working 6 days and resting on the seventh -- "still". They are all Jewish Christians and it is not until Acts 10 and 11 that we see this going to Gentiles.

The "scriptures" they were reading (the OT) specifically condemned the practice of not working at all - all week
They could not therefore be keeping all days as "Sabbath rest" as defined by God for Sabbath in Exodus 20:8-11
Nor does Acts 2 claim they were keeping Sabbath "every day". NOR does the text of Acts 2 say "they broke bread from Sabbath to Sabbath" as a way of saying "daily". NOR do we find that used in the Septuagint in Isaiah 66 for "Daily".



In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

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I will grant you that these are also interesting texts to explore - but I was asking that we look at the actual Words of Christ in Mark 7.

I still think we need to be able to do that.

As for John the baptizer not stoning people pre-cross for various violations - John did not come in the role as "judge" and Christ said that He did not come in that role either. Also God placed Israel under subjugation to Roman law at this time.

But those are just side-trails. The main issue is the Words of Christ in Mark 7 and learning from the details HE gives -- looking at HIS argument we see HIM saying that devation from HIS Word the Ten Commandments - invalidates worship.

In Christ,

Bob

The whole system of the Law includes Disciplines and Punishments such as stoning or killing.

If you cannot punish the violation, it is meaningless and need another system, by Holy Spirit.

Jesus undertook all the burdens of such sinners like me who cannot keep the Law, then assigned me the commandments of Holy Spirit dwelling in me. The Holy Spirit didn't mention Sabbath-keeping specifically in NT.

You are continuously claiming that you can keep the Law like these people:

Acts 15:
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.


The whole OT shows that Israel failed in doing so.

Calvin tried to materialize in Geneva what Israel failed for thousand years.

You are now trying to do so.

Jesus says to you this:

Acts 9:5 it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Jesus undertook all the burdens of such sinners like me who cannot keep the Law, then assigned me the commandments of Holy Spirit dwelling in me. The Holy Spirit didn't mention Sabbath-keeping specifically in NT."

GE:

When you find a 'holy spirit' that witnesses to you of the Sabbath or whatever else but Jesus Christ, it's a false one.

When you find a 'holy spirit' that witnesses to you not out of and according to the Scriptures (the whole Scriptures is the Law of God), it's a false one.

You may follow that spirit's promptings -- you are just following your own wishes whether against Jesus Christ or very unlikely, with Him.

"... the commandments of Holy Spirit dwelling in me." Hebrews tells you which and what these Commandments are; Hebrews quoted them from the Old Testament --- from a Sabbath-context Scripture eventually. Significant, isn't it?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Acts 9:5 it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

GE:

Hear who's talking!

Send God a letter with all your remonstrance against His Law. Perhaps some spirit will deliver you His answer.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Law of God was nailed to the cross. He had the power to lay down His Life; and the power to take up His Life again.

We are the believers who live in God's Dispensation and School of His Law; the Israelites attended but His Kindergarten. God's Law Vindicated, is Christ Jesus. The world has never before beheld the like of His Glory, and never again will see it thus exalted.

Its very greatness of and in Glory, is exhibited in the Life of the "Body that is Christ's", "feasting Sabbaths' Feast".

You don't like the Sabbath Day of the LORD your God? BUT MAINTAIN YOU LOVE HIM?

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"Acts 9:5 it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

GE:

Hear who's talking!

Send God a letter with all your remonstrance against His Law. Perhaps some spirit will deliver you His answer.

I know you will hear this word:

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? ( Could Peter keep the commandments before?)


Because you are like these people:


Acts 15:
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.



Then I would ask this question:



Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

You may answer " By the works of the Law", right?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Not necessarily the Holy Spirit should order the same commandments."

GE:

Exactly. That brings us to this very thread's topic: The ESSENTIALS of Christian Faith.

The very first 'essential' one finds regulating God's whole Plan of Salvation in its working out in sphere and time of human existence, is this: "Today (it was the Sabbath) this Word is fulfilled IN YOUR EARS" --- yet you won't hear!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? ( Could Peter keep the commandments before?)"

GE:

I find no issue with this verse while enjoying the previlege of Sabbath-keeping and can't see how any Christian could.

But let's look at the facts.

This verse speaks about circumcision; it has no bearing on the Sabbath. The Sabbath never has been a yoke of labour and suffering (you make it that); it has ever been the Day of God's "own rest" -- given by God to weary man for to rest on and on which to find the Divine Rest -- even Jesus Christ.

Now exactly "on the Sabbath", Jesus did most of His healing ministry; and "on the Sabbath", His ULTIMATE of saving acts, Resurrection from the dead. Then troughout the LATEST record of Jesus' redemptive works and words, the Four Gospels, we find this Day respected and applied by every believer in Jesus for the best part of the first century, never with a question ark hanging over its validity or necessity for Believers' Congregation --- only over the legalist misuse and misunderstanding of it as a way to salvation in itself.

That was the conditions and time in which Peter made his statement quoted by you from Acts.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Then I would ask this question:

Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

You may answer " By the works of the Law", right?"

GE:

It's beyond me to see how you could presume my answer.

But it is further beyond my comprehension capabilities to see how you would want to make these statement bear on the Sabbath or on its observance.

Just ask, for eaxample, how it is nobody ever uses these silly arguments when they keep Sunday? Only when it is the Day of Obedience - true, Christian obedience - the Sabbath, "Seventh Day the Sabbath of the LORD your (unchangeable) God" that good Christian loose their minds completely and start with excuses like this.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Because you are like these people:

Acts 15:
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

GE:

At least you are manly enough to speak your mind. Nevertheless I must protest and deny --sinner that I am despite, I am not 'like they'.

One must distinguish in this demand from the Pharisees, what LUKE actually supposed, namely that from the Law (of God) still, "was needful". "Necessity", says our Oening Statement.

Now everything was needful for the time, for which it used to be needful. God is the Giver of all the Law -- although here said to be "Moses' Law". That explains what still -for Christians- remained 'needful'/necessary.
How did it remain needful?
Jesus took all the Divine Law in His own body to the cross; and in and with Himself raised all the Divine Law in His own and glorified body.
Thus Christians still believe the whole Divine Law but in Jesus Christ the Risen of God. He did the shedding of blood for our sins; therefore we don't sacrifice anymore. He also "gave them (His People) rest", by "Himself having entered into His own rest as God in His own". THAT IS THE STORY OF ALL THE GOSPELS!
Conclusion:
That His People now must start keeping the First Day of the week?
That His People from noe has no Day of worship-rest whatsoever?
That now His People would be condemned for being legalists if they kept the Sabbath?
OR
what the Word says,
"THEREFORE THEN there (now) REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD (the present-day christian Church) a keeping of the Sabbath Day".

That is New Testament 'Law'; that is New Testament freedom!

 

[BobRyan]

The whole system of the Law includes Disciplines and Punishments such as stoning or killing.

If you cannot punish the violation, it is meaningless and need another system, by Holy Spirit.

You are confusing the civil laws of a theocracy with the moral law of God.

Violation of God's LAW incurrs the "second death" even today as Romans 3 points out. ALL the WORLD is STILL under that condemnation and if we do not accept the "way of escape" provided by Christ - we shall STILL suffer the penalty for sin - the second death (not stoning). And that is true of people living in the OT just as in the NT.

No change there.

The fact that "some sins" in the OT did call for the civil penalty of stoning - does not change that fact. When God priovides that the foreign nations should subjugate His people and take away their ability to enforce their own civil penalties - that does not change the moral law (100's of years pre-cross) NOR does it abolish the second death penalty that ALL will pay for ALL sins if they do not accept the Gospel.

No change.

So fine - John the Baptizer does not call for stoning - but he STILL warns against the fire and brimstone judgment of the second death as being a REAL penalty for REAL sins - not just big sins - but even coveting and lying. (Sins that did not call for stoning).

Your focus on stoning as if this is the substance of the law that we find in Romans 3 and 6 - falls short of the text.

Christ argues in Matt 5 that He is making no change at all to His Law and that those who teach such things are mistaken.

Now Back to Mark 7 and the opportunity to at least pay "Some" attention to what Christ said about the Law there.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Let's take a look at Christ's Words in Mark 7 - it shows that Christ argues strongly against any deviation from the OT text. In fact He declares that doing so "invalidates worship".


Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS[/b], BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT [b]IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''[/b]
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.[/b]
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER[/b]'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

BTW - it is instructive that your view needs to avoid the highlighted points here in Christ's teaching pre-cross regarding the Law of God as the Word of God and as the standard by which worship is judged to be valid.

In Christ,

Bob