What are some of the essential doctrines of the christian faith?

[BobRyan]

Can the reader easily see how Christ's Words regarding His Law - in Matt 5 fit perfectly with His statements in Mark 7 regarding "The Word of God"??

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"Not necessarily the Holy Spirit should order the same commandments."

GE:

Exactly. That brings us to this very thread's topic: The ESSENTIALS of Christian Faith.

The very first 'essential' one finds regulating God's whole Plan of Salvation in its working out in sphere and time of human existence, is this: "Today (it was the Sabbath) this Word is fulfilled IN YOUR EARS" --- yet you won't hear!

The reason why Paul preached the gospel at the synagogue on Sabbath was because Jews were gathering on Sabbaths as the Law commanded. Paul or other apostles didn't mind about the dates, but they wanted to preach the Gospel as much as possible. If they noticed Gentiles were gathering on Sundays, they would have preached it on Sundays as well. I hope this word will be fulfilled in YOUR EARS.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"Then I would ask this question:

Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

You may answer " By the works of the Law", right?"

GE:

It's beyond me to see how you could presume my answer.

But it is further beyond my comprehension capabilities to see how you would want to make these statement bear on the Sabbath or on its observance.

Just ask, for eaxample, how it is nobody ever uses these silly arguments when they keep Sunday? Only when it is the Day of Obedience - true, Christian obedience - the Sabbath, "Seventh Day the Sabbath of the LORD your (unchangeable) God" that good Christian loose their minds completely and start with excuses like this.

1) It was a Sarcasm againin the question.

2) I am not a Sunday-keeper. I can accept any days because everyday is the Sabbath for me as long as I am in Jesus christ.

My Sabbath is from Sabbath to Sabbath.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"Because you are like these people:

Acts 15:
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

GE:

At least you are manly enough to speak your mind. Nevertheless I must protest and deny --sinner that I am despite, I am not 'like they'.

One must distinguish in this demand from the Pharisees, what LUKE actually supposed, namely that from the Law (of God) still, "was needful". "Necessity", says our Oening Statement.

Now everything was needful for the time, for which it used to be needful. God is the Giver of all the Law -- although here said to be "Moses' Law". That explains what still -for Christians- remained 'needful'/necessary.
How did it remain needful?
Jesus took all the Divine Law in His own body to the cross; and in and with Himself raised all the Divine Law in His own and glorified body.
Thus Christians still believe the whole Divine Law but in Jesus Christ the Risen of God. He did the shedding of blood for our sins; therefore we don't sacrifice anymore. He also "gave them (His People) rest", by "Himself having entered into His own rest as God in His own". THAT IS THE STORY OF ALL THE GOSPELS!
Conclusion:
That His People now must start keeping the First Day of the week?
That His People from noe has no Day of worship-rest whatsoever?
That now His People would be condemned for being legalists if they kept the Sabbath?
OR
what the Word says,
"THEREFORE THEN there (now) REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD (the present-day christian Church) a keeping of the Sabbath Day".

That is New Testament 'Law'; that is New Testament freedom!

Where is such verse? Have you manufactured a new Bible to be suitable for Sabbath-keeping? Show me the exact verse without forging or fabrication!

Don't be confused between Sabbatown and Katapausin !
There is a great difference between them!

 

[Eliyahu]

You are confusing the civil laws of a theocracy with the moral law of God.

Violation of God's LAW incurrs the "second death" even today as Romans 3 points out. ALL the WORLD is STILL under that condemnation and if we do not accept the "way of escape" provided by Christ - we shall STILL suffer the penalty for sin - the second death (not stoning). And that is true of people living in the OT just as in the NT.

No change there.

The fact that "some sins" in the OT did call for the civil penalty of stoning - does not change that fact. When God priovides that the foreign nations should subjugate His people and take away their ability to enforce their own civil penalties - that does not change the moral law (100's of years pre-cross) NOR does it abolish the second death penalty that ALL will pay for ALL sins if they do not accept the Gospel.

No change.

So fine - John the Baptizer does not call for stoning - but he STILL warns against the fire and brimstone judgment of the second death as being a REAL penalty for REAL sins - not just big sins - but even coveting and lying. (Sins that did not call for stoning).

Your focus on stoning as if this is the substance of the law that we find in Romans 3 and 6 - falls short of the text.

Christ argues in Matt 5 that He is making no change at all to His Law and that those who teach such things are mistaken.

Now Back to Mark 7 and the opportunity to at least pay "Some" attention to what Christ said about the Law there.



BTW - it is instructive that your view needs to avoid the highlighted points here in Christ's teaching pre-cross regarding the Law of God as the Word of God and as the standard by which worship is judged to be valid.

In Christ,

Bob

Bob, can you show me any verse in NT after Cross, which specifically and clearly commands us to keep the Sabbath?

I can show the verses which prohibits clearly Murder, Adultery, Lie, Covetousness, Idolatry but not the Sabbath-keeping.

Is Sabbath-keeping a Ceremonial Law or Civil Law?
For example, there is another Sabbath like Passover Sabbath, then is it excluded in Sabbath kepping?

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? ( Could Peter keep the commandments before?)"

GE:

I find no issue with this verse while enjoying the previlege of Sabbath-keeping and can't see how any Christian could.

But let's look at the facts.

This verse speaks about circumcision; it has no bearing on the Sabbath. The Sabbath never has been a yoke of labour and suffering (you make it that); it has ever been the Day of God's "own rest" -- given by God to weary man for to rest on and on which to find the Divine Rest -- even Jesus Christ.

Now exactly "on the Sabbath", Jesus did most of His healing ministry; and "on the Sabbath", His ULTIMATE of saving acts, Resurrection from the dead. Then troughout the LATEST record of Jesus' redemptive works and words, the Four Gospels, we find this Day respected and applied by every believer in Jesus for the best part of the first century, never with a question ark hanging over its validity or necessity for Believers' Congregation --- only over the legalist misuse and misunderstanding of it as a way to salvation in itself.

That was the conditions and time in which Peter made his statement quoted by you from Acts.

Nope! Jesus fought the obligatory Sabbathkeepers all the time! Jesus was not teaching Better keeping of Sabbath, but He showed Himself is the Sabbath and the main point of Sabbath-keeping is directing to Believing in Jesus Christ who is the Owner of the Sabbath and the True Sabbath.


Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week. You can never show me the concrete proof that He was resurrected on Sabbath.
I don't force you abandon Sabbath-keeping but leave it to you. Don't force me either! as I mentioned Romans 14:5.

 

[Eliyahu]

Can the reader easily see how Christ's Words regarding His Law - in Matt 5 fit perfectly with His statements in Mark 7 regarding "The Word of God"??

All Matt 5-7 and Mark 7 direct us to believe in Jesus Christ and thereby accepting the Holy Spirit and then following the Holy Spirit, not the Law which was crucified at the Cross.


Col 2
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


The only thing that you can say is this, the Holy Spirit doesn't work against what was said before in OT, because OT commandments were written by the Holy Spirit. However, God changed the law, not because He couldn't fulfil, but because the Israelites couldn't keep it.
In the whole process, the Holy Spirit is helping us to achieve and accomplish the Law in His own way, and Sabbath-keeping is not seen as one of the essential elements of the NT teachings. If you disagree, show me the concrete verse which commands Sabbath, in NT after the Cross.

 

[DHK]

The matter of keeping the Sabbath is not germane to the title of this thread and should be put to rest. Another thread can be started on that topic if so desired.
The real question about the Sabbath that has never been answered by the SDA's and those advocating their position is: Where in the NT is there any command for Gentile beleivers to keep the Sabbath. There isn't any. Thus no believer is under any obligation to keep the Sabbath. There is no command anywhere for any believer to keep the Sabbath.
At any rate this topic should be in another thread.

 

[BobRyan]

The matter of keeping the Sabbath is not germane to the title of this thread and should be put to rest. Another thread can be started on that topic if so desired.
The real question about the Sabbath that has never been answered by the SDA's and those advocating their position is: Where in the NT is there any command for Gentile beleivers to keep the Sabbath. There isn't any. Thus no believer is under any obligation to keep the Sabbath. There is no command anywhere for any believer to keep the Sabbath.
At any rate this topic should be in another thread.

feel free to pursue that on the "Ten Commandments weekend" thread if you like.

 

[Eliyahu]

Remember that I don't oppose to Sabbathkeeping, but to the obligatory, compulsory Sabbathkeeping by Gentiles. If the Sabbathkeeping should be compulsory, the whole country or community should have turned to be suitable for it as the ancient Israel was.

I think it is wise that we should have another thread for Sabbath issue unless majority can agree that Sabbathkeeping is the essential part of the believer's life.

For example, Truth of the Redemption not by Works but by Grace is one of the Essentials.

In that case, have I got out of the ditch and am on the REST( Katapausin), not in the Sabbath( Sabbatwn) ?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The reason why Paul preached the gospel at the synagogue on Sabbath was because Jews were gathering on Sabbaths as the Law commanded. Paul or other apostles didn't mind about the dates, but they wanted to preach the Gospel as much as possible. If they noticed Gentiles were gathering on Sundays, they would have preached it on Sundays as well. I hope this word will be fulfilled in YOUR EARS.

GE:

Speculation - through which anyone may deduce - i.e., wrest - anything he likes from the Scriptures. This you are able to do only with total disregard for God's INSTRUMENTS for the proclamtion of HIS --not ours -- Gospel.

Two o f the MAIN earthly, creation-bound instruments of God in this are the Church and, for the Church and its task, are in space and time, the service and utility of the Day of His Worship-Rest. As it had been ever before Christ, and ever after Christ, in the life of His Church, will be -- not per chance, but according to the eternal will and way of God Himself.

That's why in the OT the Sabbath's NAME, is, "Seventh Day Sabbath Day of the LORD your God"; and in the New, "Lord (Jesus' Sabbath) Day".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu,

"If they noticed Gentiles were gathering on Sundays, they would have preached it on Sundays as well."

"if ..." -- 'If' won't do. God acted pro-actively in everything necessary for the Gospel of Christ. The observation you did make from the Gospels, is that the Jews NOT as on the Sabbath gathered together for worship, but on the Sabbath Day. That was the LAST impression the early Church left us. It confirmed God's eternal way of doing His will. 'If', comes only as a feeble nevertheless arrogant excuse.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"2) I am not a Sunday-keeper. I can accept any days because everyday is the Sabbath for me as long as I am in Jesus christ.

My Sabbath is from Sabbath to Sabbath."

This comes as no surprise, as nothing new or original. It is the vainglorious cluthching at the straw of a desparate man.
My only answer is: Scripture? Hb4? Man o man!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

AAA:

"Which christian doctrines are essential for the salvation for the soul, because not every doctrine pertains to the salvation of the soul....."

GE:

This is a completely different question than the thread's heading.

I have hammered on the necessity/essentiality of the Sabbath. But neither the Sabbath nor its keeping saves anyone. In fact if our works of Sabbath-keeping would presented for our justification it would have meant our condemnation and damnation.

Therefore the necessity of the day of Worship-Rest is one to the LIFE of the Church ... be back now ...

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

AAA:

"The persons saved by GRACE are saved and those that are NOT saved by GRACE are LOST and GOD has made HIS choice in election..."

GE:

I agree with you in this. "God knows who are His".
He saves no one but by the revelation of Himself to the one saved, in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit: That's how 'grace' is spelled in divine terms. That's how grace has been demonstrated in the Bible and especially in the New Testament.

So we get the Faith of the Trinity and the Scriptures added to the list of things of necessity to both salvation and the life of the saved.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Are you saying a person need not repent of "dead works" (Heb. 6:1), that it is not necessary to understand (Mat. 13:23) and believe the objective facts of the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-3), and that one need not "obey the gospel" (Rom. 10:16, II Thes. 1:8, I Pet. 4:17) in order to be saved? Are you saying God will save those He elected by grace regardless of what they believe or do not believe?

GE:

You suppose the absolute of nonentity and impossibility. Your suggestions here are the antithesis of the Gospel of Salvation.

AAA gave you the right answer. The chosen of God are chosen to become and be the believers of their election and the doers of God's election and favour. The void of their former existence has been filled to the glory of God in the face of Jesus. That is God's election -- even His grace.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"2) I am not a Sunday-keeper. I can accept any days because everyday is the Sabbath for me as long as I am in Jesus christ.

My Sabbath is from Sabbath to Sabbath."

This comes as no surprise, as nothing new or original. It is the vainglorious cluthching at the straw of a desparate man.
My only answer is: Scripture? Hb4? Man o man!

You try to take me into the ditch of Sabbath again!

I have entered the Katapausin ( Rest) !

Do you know the Disciples gathered together to break Bread on Sunday?

Read Acts 20:7 !

Lord's Supper is the most important part of the Worship Service and that was done on the First Day of the Week. Don't tell me it is not the Lord's Supper!

Then how come they collected the donations on the first day of the week ( 1 Cor 16:2) ?

Anyway, I have entered the Katapausin in Jesus Christ the Owner of Real Sabbath

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"You try to take me into the ditch of Sabbath again!"

Isaiah of Jesus Christ:

"The Repairer of the breach, The Restorer of paths to dwell in: If Thou call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour Him (the LORD), not .... speaking thine own words -- THEN shalt THOU delight Thyself in the LORD; and I will cause Thee to RIDE UPON THE HIGH PLACES ..."

But Eliyahu speaks words, saying, "the ditch of the Sabbath again"!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"I have entered the Katapausin ( Rest) !"

GE:

"I judge no one; the words I have spoken, they shall judge ..." you, said Jesus.

You claim to have entered the 'Katapausin', yet refuse what "remains for the People of God", "AS THE RESULT OF" - 'ara', THIS VERY 'katapausis', namely, their "keeping of the Sabbath Day -- Sabbatismos"?
You explain that to me?

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"I have entered the Katapausin ( Rest) !"

GE:

"I judge no one; the words I have spoken, they shall judge ..." you, said Jesus.

You claim to have entered the 'Katapausin', yet refuse what "remains for the People of God", "AS THE RESULT OF" - 'ara', THIS VERY 'katapausis', namely, their "keeping of the Sabbath Day -- Sabbatismos"?
You explain that to me?

I already asked you where you found such verse as you manufactured one " keep Sabbath" in NT. You can never bring such verse, therefore may I conculde that you invented your own bible?

If not, bring the verse !
GE said :
THEREFORE THEN there (now) REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD (the present-day christian Church) a keeping of the Sabbath Day".


Have you patented the Technology and Know-how of How to Invent a New Bible? Try to register your Patent! unless you can bring the exact Bible Verse which states above!