What Constitutes a Work?

[Brother Bob]

If I were to define the works of the Moral Law, I would give the ten Commandments.

Works is whatever you lend your members, heart and mind to commit, whether "good or bad". There has to be an action for it to be works, but that action can be in the mind or heart only and not require the use of the limbs. I guess it all comes down to "obeidence or disobeidence, would include all works.

I don't know if that is what you want or not.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BBob: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

HP: Oh the things we will do for an old friend:saint: :laugh:

I have addressed that verse more than once. It could simply be written, the grounds of salvation is not something contrived within the will of man, nor is it designed in such a way as to allow man to somehow merit it ‘on the account of’ something man is the author , initiator, or first cause of.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BBob: If I were to define the works of the Moral Law, I would give the ten Commandments.

Works is whatever you lend your members, heart and mind to commit, whether "good or bad". There has to be an action for it to be works, but that action can be in the mind or heart only and not require the use of the limbs. I guess it all comes down to "obeidence or disobeidence, would include all works.

HP: Thanks BBob! What would say to this definition? Works are anything done by man, whether only inwardly, or inwardly and outwardly, that God sees man as the first cause of and as such holds man morally accountable for them.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
BBob: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


HP: Oh the things we will do for an old friend:saint: :laugh:

I have addressed that verse more than once. It could simply be written, the grounds of salvation is not something contrived within the will of man, nor is it designed in such a way as to allow man to somehow merit it ‘on the account of’ something man is the author , initiator, or first cause of.

I guess my point is that this scripture does not "take away" man's ability to "believe".

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
BBob: If I were to define the works of the Moral Law, I would give the ten Commandments.

Works is whatever you lend your members, heart and mind to commit, whether "good or bad". There has to be an action for it to be works, but that action can be in the mind or heart only and not require the use of the limbs. I guess it all comes down to "obeidence or disobeidence, would include all works.


HP: Thanks BBob! What would say to this definition? Works are anything done by man, whether only inwardly, or inwardly and outwardly, that God sees man as the first cause of and as such holds man morally accountable for them.

We seem to be saying about the same here HP.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Works are anything done by man, whether only inwardly, or inwardly and outwardly, that God sees man as the first cause of and as such holds man morally accountable for them.

BBob: We seem to be saying about the same here HP.

HP: I would agree. Let’s see what we can develop from this agreement. I am trying to develop a working definition that we can use. Do you like the following? Are there any changes or additions that you think one might make?

Works are intents and or actions of man that man is the first cause of and as such is judged morally righteous or sinful according to whether or not such intents and or subsequent actions are in accordance with or in opposition to God’s moral law.

 

[webdog]

like in employment, work can be either blue collar, or white collar. Some work is physical, while other is mental. Both are derived from within the person.

 

[Brother Bob]

Its like a great list of do's or don'ts written in the hearts and minds of all men, from God.

Rom 2:15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Job 32:8But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

There are other scriptures that could be added to these.

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: No allowed:laugh:

Can works be righteous or evil, benevolent or selfish?

...

O.K. no eeking:

Yes. That is why the Bible says we Christ-folk must be
doing GOOD WORKS (not evil works, not selfish works, etc)
There can also been non-evil works that do nobody no good
(like helping a little ol' lady across the street who
wants to go shoping on THIS SIDE )
So our works must also be 'useful'.

 

[Ed Edwards]

like in employment, work can be either blue collar, or white collar. Some work is physical, while other is mental. Both are derived from within the person.

Right! Intercessory Prayer would even be a Spiritual
Good Work.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: like in employment, work can be either blue collar, or white collar. Some work is physical, while other is mental. Both are derived from within the person.

HP: This to me is the crucial idea concerning works. All works consist of a formed intent, but not all works end in outward action. Just the same, all works, whether developing into an action or not, if they are moral in nature, are judged by God. All moral works, whether or not they end in mere intention for whatever reason, or develop into actual outward manifestation, will receive a just recompense of reward, whether of sin to death, or righteousness unto praise.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Ed: Yes. That is why the Bible says we Christ-folk must be
doing GOOD WORKS (not evil works, not selfish works, etc)
There can also been non-evil works that do nobody no good
(like helping a little ol' lady across the street who
wants to go shoping on THIS SIDE )
So our works must also be 'useful'.

HP: You are making yet another very useful observation.:thumbs: Works can be moral in nature or not. Works are not limited to simply moral praise or blame. Excellent.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Webdog: like in employment, work can be either blue collar, or white collar. Some work is physical, while other is mental. Both are derived from within the person.


HP: This to me is the crucial idea concerning works. All works consist of a formed intent, but not all works end in outward action. Just the same, all works, whether developing into an action or not, if they are moral in nature, are judged by God. All moral works, whether or not they end in mere intention for whatever reason, or develop into actual outward manifestation, will receive a just recompense of reward, whether of sin to death, or righteousness unto praise.

Was it always even just intent or did works change after the coming of Christ?

Mat 5:27¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Mat 5:43¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Ed: Right! Intercessory Prayer would even be a Spiritual
Good Work.

HP: You guys are exhibiting great focus!!:thumbs: You are showing that works may or may not be rewarded by God. All works that are moral in nature will either receive condemnation or praise. Just the same, there are some works that are not moral and may not receive nay reward or condemnation. These works are again not considered as moral, for all moral works will be judged.

It also raises the point that God may judge some works as good and praise one, yet that does not constitute working for ones salvation. Works in this sense are moral and will receive praise from God, yet do not have ‘merit’ in regards to salvation. One cannot, as a sinner, perform enough of these ‘good works’ to even pay for one solitary sin. We can safely conclude that in regards to salvation, no works, even those God rewards, have any merit in regard to gaining salvation or atoning for any sin whatsoever, Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin. Works cannot be thought of in any way as the grounds by which salvation is received.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Was it always even just intent or did works change after the coming of Christ?

HP: Can we sit on this question until we are all in unity on what constitutes works, and then come back to it?

 

[Brother Bob]

I thought "intent" was what you were asking?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BBob: I thought "intent" was what you were asking?

HP: OK. Works have to have intent to be moral. For instance, if I swing an axe at a tree and the head of it slips off and kills another, does Scripture impute guilt in such cases?

If I swing an axe intending to kill someone but miss will not God judge my 'work' the same as if though I had committed murder?

Intent has always been at the very heart of whether or not ones ‘works’ are moral or not. Agreed?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

How about you Webdog? Are you in basic agreement so far or do you have questions and as such have not formed an opinion as to the truth we are trying to uncover and relate to?

 

[webdog]

HP: You guys are exhibiting great focus!!:thumbs: You are showing that works may or may not be rewarded by God. All works that are moral in nature will either receive condemnation or praise. Just the same, there are some works that are not moral and may not receive nay reward or condemnation. These works are again not considered as moral, for all moral works will be judged.

It also raises the point that God may judge some works as good and praise one, yet that does not constitute working for ones salvation. Works in this sense are moral and will receive praise from God, yet do not have ‘merit’ in regards to salvation. One cannot, as a sinner, perform enough of these ‘good works’ to even pay for one solitary sin. We can safely conclude that in regards to salvation, no works, even those God rewards, have any merit in regard to gaining salvation or atoning for any sin whatsoever, Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin. Works cannot be thought of in any way as the grounds by which salvation is received.

To add to this, even the reprobate can do "good" works. Even though their works are like filthy rags in regards to justification, they are good nontheless (evil man not giving a rock when their son asks for bread, etc.). Scripture also tells us that we ALL (righteous and unrighteous alike) will answer for what is done in the body, both good and bad.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
BBob: I thought "intent" was what you were asking?


HP: OK. Works have to have intent to be moral. For instance, if I swing an axe at a tree and the head of it slips off and kills another, does Scripture impute guilt in such cases?

If I swing an axe intending to kill someone but miss will not God judge my 'work' the same as if though I had committed murder?

Intent has always been at the very heart of whether or not ones ‘works’ are moral or not. Agreed?

Yes, even in the following scripture, it seems the intent to actually commit the act of adultery was not there when one "looketh" upon a woman. But it seems what is sin now and not accepted of God, must of been accepted under the Law? What you say?

Mat 5:27¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.