What Constitutes a Work?

[I Am Blessed 24]

I will start off by saying I did not read thoroughly all the posts in this thread, so if this has already been said, I apologize.

Now this is certainly a revealing passage. Would you mind giving the list your personal take as to how or why Scripture would equate ‘belief’ with a ‘work?’

We do not do works for our salvation.
We do works as a result of our salvation.

A 'work' can be anything from helping an elderly person cross a busy street - to working on the mission field in a foreign country. And we do both to the glory of God...

 

[Brother Bob]

I am Blessed 17;

What we are discussing is the meaning of "works" and there are "good and bad works" outside of Salvation. The unsaved can "help that person across the street also", but do it for other reasons, than a Christian may do it. I have heard it said many many times in my life, "he/she is a good man or woman". There is a saying "you can say something good about everyone" even if you have to say "he was a good whistler".
We are just trying to define "works" as a whole.

John the Baptist said "bring ye forth fruits/works, meet for repentance" and he was talking to the unsaved. What did he mean??

BBob,

 

[BobRyan]

If you do a search in the NT for "Good Works" do you suppose you will find "condemnation" or approval?

Try it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: If you do a search in the NT for "Good Works" do you suppose you will find "condemnation" or approval?

HP: Something must be wrong with the search engines:laugh: :tonofbricks:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I Am Blessed 17: I will start off by saying ......

HP: You are giving examples of good works, which is fine, but what we have attempted to do is to define the word ‘works,’ and to discover the parameters in which works encompasses. We have attempted to discover whether or not works can be good or evil, at what point God judges them as a good work or a bad work, whether or not action has to be involved in order for God to praise or blame one for them etc.

We have attempted to shed light on the different senses one can speak of concerning an issue such as works, in order to see how things on the surface can be said which appear to be contradictory but in reality are simply speaking of different senses of the word or using the word in different senses. We discussed how some simply search for a proof text that supports their presuppositions without giving heed to understand the sense in which the text is employing the word. There were many insightful posts from several members which would be worthy of going back and carefully reading.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BBob: John the Baptist said "bring ye forth fruits/works, meet for repentance" and he was talking to the unsaved. What did he mean??

HP: Yet another excellent question. Here we have unsaved individuals that John was telling them to bring forth something we are often told is nothing more than filthy rags. It shows a gross misunderstanding on the part of some as to the sense in which ‘works’ is used in that particular verse.

Note that the Apostle was telling these individuals that they needed to do something in order to be accepted as believers. He was telling them that their first obligation was to exercise their wills in sincere repentance. John did not desire to just hear lip service, but was looking for fruits, formed intents and subsequent actions that would show evidence of their repentance, BEFORE being baptized into the faith. God can certainly discern the motives and intents of the heart before ones intents ever become an outward manifestation, but the Apostle was not God and therefore demanded that they show outward evidence before he baptized them. He was NOT telling them that they needed to work to be saved, as if though there was something they needed to do to ‘merit’ salvation. Just the same he was telling them there was something they needed to do, NOT in the sense of ‘that for the sake of,’ but rather they were to do something in the sense of ‘not without which.’

Scripture is clear. God does require man to do something in order to be saved, without which no man shall see God. Man must take the measure or ability to place their faith in God and voluntarily exercise that faith in repentance in order to be saved. Their repentance IS NOT meritorious, as if though repentance saves you. Repentance is a mere condition of salvation, thought of again in the sense of ‘not without which.’ We are NOT saved for the sake of our repentance, but neither will any man be saved apart from repentance. Repentance is a work of the heart that God requires man to perform, without which no man shall receive the gift of eternal life. God gives to man the abilities to repent and calls upon man to voluntarily exercise that ability, as He commands all men everywhere to do.

When Scripture tells us that God grants to us repentance, it simply means that He has given to us the abilities to repent, and judges the motives of our heart as to its honest formed intentions. If God sees that we are sincere, and have honestly turned from our sin and have judged our sin even as God judges it, He will accept that repentance as the fulfillment of the condition He has set forth in order to be saved. God, by ‘granting repentance’ is showing that in such cases He accepts it as genuine and as such a fulfillment of the condition of repentance He demands.

In a sense it could be said that those who brought forth fruits mete for repentance to the Apostle John, he granted to them the repentance necessary for baptism into the faith. He approved it as genuine and as such accepted it as the fulfillment of the condition required.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I offered the following as a working definition of a work.

Works are anything done by man, whether only inwardly, or inwardly and outwardly, that God sees man as the first cause of and as such holds man morally accountable for them.

I might abbreviate that to simply: Works are defined as anything man does in which he is a first cause of.

Several of you have been actively involved in this thread. What do you think? Are either of these a workable definition of a ‘work?’ Can we define a work as something that man does that he is said to be the first cause of and is held morally accountable to God for creating or bringing it into existence as a first cause?

 

[TCGreek]

At this point, it really doesn't matter how we define "works" as long as we all agree that the term "works of man" is not the basis of our justification before God, but Christ is (2 Cor 5:21).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: At this point, it really doesn't matter how we define "works" as long as we all agree that the term "works of man" is not the basis of our justification before God, but Christ is (2 Cor 5:21).

HP: That would be nice but that is not how it ‘works.’ Every time the Calvinist, or those leaning in that direction, hear the word ‘condition’ in conjunction with salvation, they cry, “Salvation by works!” Many times I have been told that if I believe that man must do anything, including repent, in order to be saved, that I believe in salvation by works. When you tell them that God requires man to first repent, they will respond something to the effect that if something is required of man, that it constitutes a ‘merit based’ approach to salvation. If you tell them that mans will is indeed involved, they will respond that salvation is ‘not by the will of man.’ Again this shows great misunderstanding on the Calvinist’s part of what constitutes a works based salvation, what is meant by Scripture indicating that salvation is ‘not by the will of man’ and a void concerning Biblical conditions God has set forth in Scripture as to man’s duties and responsibilities in the salvation process.

It matters greatly how one defines or uses the word ‘works’ in relationship to salvation.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: That would be nice but that is not how it ‘works.’ Every time the Calvinist, or those leaning in that direction, hear the word ‘condition’ in conjunction with salvation, they cry, “Salvation by works!” Many times I have been told that if I believe that man must do anything, including repent, in order to be saved, that I believe in salvation by works. When you tell them that God requires man to first repent, they will respond something to the effect that if something is required of man, that it constitutes a ‘merit based’ approach to salvation. If you tell them that mans will is indeed involved, they will respond that salvation is ‘not by the will of man.’ Again this shows great misunderstanding on the Calvinist’s part of what constitutes a works based salvation, what is meant by Scripture indicating that salvation is ‘not by the will of man’ and a void concerning Biblical conditions God has set forth in Scripture as to man’s duties and responsibilities in the salvation process.

It matters greatly how one defines or uses the word ‘works’ in relationship to salvation.

1. Whether Calvinist or not, Eph 2:8-10 covers both salvation and sanctification:

a. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

b. This faith that man must exercise is not a work, or Paul would be contradicting himself.

c. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

2. We are saved unto good works, which God himself has prepared, and since God prepared them, walking in them give Him the glory.

3. Man has no basis of credit any how you slice it.

 

[BobRyan]

Linda seems to a have point to add here - but put it on the OSAS thread instead of this one.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1107626&postcount=210

 

[Brother Bob]

1. Whether Calvinist or not, Eph 2:8-10 covers both salvation and sanctification:

a. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

b. This faith that man must exercise is not a work, or Paul would be contradicting himself.

c. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

2. We are saved unto good works, which God himself has prepared, and since God prepared them, walking in them give Him the glory.

3. Man has no basis of credit any how you slice it.

I think the question is how do we get to this point?

 

[TCGreek]

I think the question is how do we get to this point?

We get to the point of salvation by grace through faith. God give us His grace and we respond by faith.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: This faith that man must exercise is not a work, or Paul would be contradicting himself.

HP: Faith is indeed a work that man must do by the exercising of his will. You simply are not understanding that the sense in which works of man are NOT involved is in the sense of works as the grounds of salvation, or that man's involvemnet is thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of.'

Faith involves an act of the will. It involves man doing something. No, it is NOT meritorious. It is NOT the grounds of our salvation, but salvation will not be accomplished without it.

When Scripture states it is 'not of works lest any man should boast,' it is saying in essense that salvation is not the product of mans invention, and it is not merited by works he does. When Scripture states 'nor by the will of man' it is saying in essence that the will of man is again not the grounds of salvation, nor is the will of man the author of salvation. That is NOT to say that the will of man is not involved in salvation in the least, nor is it to pit faith against mans involvment in the exercising of his will in agreement to the conditions God has mandated for man to comply with.

 

[LeBuick]

Faith involves an act of the will. It involves man doing something. No, it is NOT meritorious. It is NOT the grounds of our salvation, but salvation will not be accomplished without it.

Powerful words, very powerful words...

When Scripture states it is 'not of works lest any man should boast,' it is saying in essense that salvation is not the product of mans invention, and it is not merited by works he does. .

Could it be that Paul used the word "works" in this case to match the pre conception or definition they had for the word works. I other words he is saying not by obedience to the law (works). Which is not to exclude Jesus definition of works.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LeBuick: Could it be that Paul used the word "works" in this case to match the pre conception or definition they had for the word works.

HP: He could have stated: In and of yourself and your own efforts you cannot be saved. You can try all you want to keep the law, but it will not suffice for one solitary sin. Nothing you can do, in and of yourselves, has the least merit in it to wash away the slightest stain of sin. It takes God producing a plan. It takes God providing a Sacrifice. Without the shedding of the blood of Christ there is NO remission for sin. Repent therefore by exercising your will in humility and remorse and judge your sins even as God judges them. Exercise your wills in obedience and turn from your wicked ways, renounce your evil and selfish deeds. Exercise your will in faith, looking to God’s sacrifice of His Son as your only hope of salvation. Unless you do these things ye will die in your sins.

NO, a thousand times no, the exercising of your will is not meritorious in nature and does not merit salvation for anyone. Just the same, no man will be saved apart from voluntary obedience to these conditions of salvation God has set forth for man to do. No one can do it for you. You must exercise your will in repentance, and exercise your will by placing your faith in Jesus Christ, to be saved. There is indeed something you must do that God has not and will not do for you, nor can any other man do for you in order for you to be saved. You must repent and exercise your faith in Christ. Those are indeed mans works he must do.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Faith is indeed a work that man must do by the exercising of his will. You simply are not understanding that the sense in which works of man are NOT involved is in the sense of works as the grounds of salvation, or that man's involvemnet is thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of.'

Faith involves an act of the will. It involves man doing something. No, it is NOT meritorious. It is NOT the grounds of our salvation, but salvation will not be accomplished without it.

When Scripture states it is 'not of works lest any man should boast,' it is saying in essense that salvation is not the product of mans invention, and it is not merited by works he does. When Scripture states 'nor by the will of man' it is saying in essence that the will of man is again not the grounds of salvation, nor is the will of man the author of salvation. That is NOT to say that the will of man is not involved in salvation in the least, nor is it to pit faith against mans involvment in the exercising of his will in agreement to the conditions God has mandated for man to comply with.

As long as Eph 2:8, 9 are intact, I don't care how much you wish to qualify what a work is or is not.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Faith is indeed a work that man must do by the exercising of his will. You simply are not understanding that the sense in which works of man are NOT involved is in the sense of works as the grounds of salvation, or that man's involvemnet is thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of.'

Faith involves an act of the will. It involves man doing something. No, it is NOT meritorious. It is NOT the grounds of our salvation, but salvation will not be accomplished without it.

When Scripture states it is 'not of works lest any man should boast,' it is saying in essense that salvation is not the product of mans invention, and it is not merited by works he does. When Scripture states 'nor by the will of man' it is saying in essence that the will of man is again not the grounds of salvation, nor is the will of man the author of salvation. That is NOT to say that the will of man is not involved in salvation in the least, nor is it to pit faith against mans involvment in the exercising of his will in agreement to the conditions God has mandated for man to comply with.

BTW, Paul who writes so much about faith, Has he ever referred to it as a work?

 

[Ed Edwards]

As long as Eph 2:8, 9 are intact, I don't care how much you wish to qualify what a work is or is not.

In post #8 I list some scriptures along the lines
of "Now that you are saved, here is a good work
you should do ... "

Paul said to Titus:
Titus 3:14 (NASB):
Our people must also learn to engage
in good deeds to meet pressing needs,
so that they will not be unfruitful.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: I would say this passage needs to be viewed in light of Who God is and Who man is and what sin is,

HP: I would agree with you here. I would also say that you need to apply this insight you show here in how you understand the concept of faith as well. When you disconnect man’s will from ‘doing’ something other than passively accepting something from God as a sponge drinks in water in order to receive saving faith, you can land in no other trap than the one of determinism.

Sin, repentance, and saving faith all demand that the will of man is active as a first cause in the process of forming intents, without which they are nothing other than the product of force or coercion. If you honestly desire to see man as the real cause of sin and not God, man must be free to do something other than he does under the very same set of circumstances. If you do not desire determinism to be the outcome of your theological system, faith and repentance are going to have to be viewed in the same light of freedom with man’s will being a determining factor in whether or not faith and repentance are employed.