What Constitutes a Work?

[Brother Bob]

We get to the point of salvation by grace through faith. God give us His grace and we respond by faith.

I think you got it backwards TC, with all respect. It says "through" faith.

 

[Pickettman]

HP: Faith is indeed a work that man must do by the exercising of his will. You simply are not understanding that the sense in which works of man are NOT involved is in the sense of works as the grounds of salvation, or that man's involvemnet is thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of.'

I agree!!!

I'm jumping in this conversation late in the 9th so excuse me if I say somthing that has already been stated.

If Faith is a work (which I agree), then Repentance would be a work as well (i.e. something that man does) and is it necessary for salvation as well?

 

[TCGreek]

HP: I would agree with you here. I would also say that you need to apply this insight you show here in how you understand the concept of faith as well. When you disconnect man’s will from ‘doing’ something other than passively accepting something from God as a sponge drinks in water in order to receive saving faith, you can land in no other trap than the one of determinism.

Sin, repentance, and saving faith all demand that the will of man is active as a first cause in the process of forming intents, without which they are nothing other than the product of force or coercion. If you honestly desire to see man as the real cause of sin and not God, man must be free to do something other than he does under the very same set of circumstances. If you do not desire determinism to be the outcome of your theological system, faith and repentance are going to have to be viewed in the same light of freedom with man’s will being a determining factor in whether or not faith and repentance are employed.

1. I don't teach force coercion. I believe man must respond freely in saving faith, for that is what we see in Scripture (conversions in Acts).

2. I have not problem in saying man is "doing" something in response to the gospel call, as long as that "doing" is not the type that Paul ferociously condemns (Rom 4:1-4; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:8, 9).

 

[TCGreek]

I think you got it backwards TC, with all respect. It says "through" faith.

1. Well, I think in the first part of the statement I said "saved by grace through faith."

2. But in another place we read, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law" (Rom 3:28).

 

[Brother Bob]

2. But in another place we read, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law" (Rom 3:28).

You know TC;, I think we as a whole often fail to realize when it is speaking of works, it means the works of the Law, don't you?

 

[TCGreek]

You know TC;, I think we as a whole often fail to realize when it is speaking of works, it means the works of the Law, don't you?

1. Yes, in Rom 3:28 it is an obvious reference to the Law, but in Rom 4:1-5, there was no Law yet Paul spoke of works in a condemning manner.

2. There was no Law of Rom 3:28 in Abraham's time yet Paul was Abraham was justified by faith and not by works of any kind.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pickettman:If Faith is a work (which I agree), then Repentance would be a work as well (i.e. something that man does) and is it necessary for salvation as well?

HP: Repentance is a condition of salvation that man must form as an act of the will without which no man shall inherit eternal life. “Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: 2. There was no Law of Rom 3:28 in Abraham's time yet Paul was Abraham was justified by faith and not by works of any kind.

HP: What? How could the heathen which have not the law do the things contained in the law and by doing so become a law unto themselves?

As for Abraham, he indeed did do something. He exercised his will and believed God that He is and rewards those that diligently seek Him. He also believed God as he offered up his son Isaac and was JUSTFIED by WORKS in doing so. Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

I sure hope you are not one of those that considers the book of James a mere epistle of straw.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: What? How could the heathen which have not the law do the things contained in the law and by doing so become a law unto themselves?

1. They had a law written on their hearts but it certainly was not the Mosaic Law (Rom 2; Gal 3).

As for Abraham, he indeed did do something. He exercised his will and believed God that He is and rewards those that diligently seek Him. He also believed God as he offered up his son Isaac and was JUSTFIED by WORKS in doing so. Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

2. Indeed, Abraham believe God and that was credited as Rigtheousness (Rom 4).

3. James speaks of the testing of Abraham's faith and the vindication of a faith he already possessed and was justified by (Gen 22:1).

I sure hope you are not one of those that considers the book of James a mere epistle of straw.

4. So I have no need of belittling James.

 

[BobRyan]

romans 3 speaks of "works of the law apart from faith".

And that is "always bad".

But the NT also speaks of "good works" -- question. Is that always bad?? Look it up.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: 2. There was no Law of Rom 3:28 in Abraham's time yet Paul was Abraham was justified by faith and not by works of any kind.

HP: Do you wish to restate this remark in light of the passage in James?

TCG: James speaks of the testing of Abraham's faith and the vindication of a faith he already possessed and was justified by (Gen 22:1).

HP: I do not see the words “This is a test” in this passage. It simply states that Abraham was justified by works contrary to your remark above. Where does it state or imply that this was a 'vindication of the faith he already had??'

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Do you wish to restate this remark in light of the passage in James?



HP: I do not see the words “This is a test” in this passage. It simply states that Abraham was justified by works contrary to your remark above. Where does it state or imply that this was a 'vindication of the faith he already had??'

1. I believe in using the Bible to interpret the Bible. Gen 22 which relates the offering of Isaac by Abraham begins: "Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham," and we know the rest of the story.

2. To this James refers to make his point about being justified by works as a proof of one's faith.

3. "But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works" (v.18).

a. This is built on v. 14. If you can't see that, then I can't help you.

b. Abraham was already justified years before the accounts of Genesis 22. He was justified in Gen 15:6, but was put to the test in Gen 22.

4. That is clear to me.

 

[TCGreek]

HP,

If you want to boast about the fact that you exercise faith as a work and therefore God owed you salvation, go ahead. But I would do no such thing. I believe in Eph 2:8, 9:

"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift— not from works, so that no one can boast."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP:TCG, what does being ‘justified’ mean to you? You must not believe in OJAJ (Once justified always justified) do you? This would be good fodder for yet another thread.

TCG: If you want to boast about the fact that you exercise faith as a work and therefore God owed you salvation, go ahead. But I would do no such thing. I believe in Eph 2:8, 9:

"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift— not from works, so that no one can boast."

HP: This is simply a pathetic argument TCG. Me boast about my willingness to fulfill the conditions of salvation? That makes as much sense as one that has been granted a pardon boasting that he repented of his former crimes and had a change of heart and attitude concerning them. Now it would seem self contradictory to me to be boasting at the same time in the same sense, would it not? Come on. Surely we can do better than that. Present a case that is real and not simply a figment of your imagination. Rest assured, such manufactured notions that are completely lacking in veracity do nothing to bolster your case.

 

[TCGreek]

HP:TCG, what does being ‘justified’ mean to you? You must not believe in OJAJ (Once justified always justified) do you? This would be good fodder for yet another thread.

1. I believe that those whom God has justified He will glorify (Rom 8:30).

HP: This is simply a pathetic argument TCG. Me boast about my willingness to fulfill the conditions of salvation? That makes as much sense as one that has been granted a pardon boasting that he repented of his former crimes and had a change of heart and attitude concerning them. Now it would seem self contradictory to me to be boasting at the same time in the same sense, would it not? Come on. Surely we can do better than that. Present a case that is real and not simply a figment of your imagination. Rest assured, such manufactured notions that are completely lacking in veracity do nothing to bolster your case.

2. Then, you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP:TCG, what does being ‘justified’ mean to you? You must not believe in OJAJ (Once justified always justified) do you? This would be good fodder for yet another thread.

TCG: 1. I believe that those whom God has justified He will glorified (Rom 8:30).

HP: If you do not desire to answer the question, why not simply refuse to answer or say you do not want to?

 

[TCGreek]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP:TCG, what does being ‘justified’ mean to you? You must not believe in OJAJ (Once justified always justified) do you? This would be good fodder for yet another thread.




HP: If you do not desire to answer the question, why not simply refuse to answer or say you do not want to?

I guess quoting Rom 8:30 is not an ANSWER you like. It is an answer, nevertheless.

 

[LeBuick]

HP: What? How could the heathen which have not the law do the things contained in the law and by doing so become a law unto themselves?

I'm not so sure about this, Abraham was under the priesthood of Melchisedec. Though we don't know of a law per se, we do know there must of been something in force which caused Abraham to pay tithes. I assume this was the same law that made Cane and Able give their offering.

Heb 7:1 (KJV) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

 

[TCGreek]

I'm not so sure about this, Abraham was under the priesthood of Melchisedec. Though we don't know of a law per se, we do know there must of been something in force which caused Abraham to pay tithes. I assume this was the same law that made Cane and Able give their offering.

Heb 7:1 (KJV) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

Paul makes an argument that before the Law of Moses was given to the Jews (Rom 2), a law was given to the Gentiles, which was written on their hearts.

 

[Pickettman]

HP: Repentance is a condition of salvation that man must form as an act of the will without which no man shall inherit eternal life. “Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” [/FONT][/COLOR]

When you say "condition" do you mean "We repent because we are saved" or "We are saved because we Repent"?