What do dead christians do?

[Thinkingstuff]

I had this discussion with my neihbor who is thinking about going to church has this problem with Christianity. He doesn't see the point of going to heaven. He finds it boring thinking about praising God for eternity and not really being productive in anyway. And thinking about it I think how we present the plan of salvation (generally speaking) makes what he's saying a little valid. Believe on Jesus and be saved. Then you can go to heaven and have a right relationship with God and have the eternal reward of being close to him praising him etc...(including participating in a feast) I like reading CS Lewis who has a celtic influenced christian consept of eternity which is interesting especially when you read the great divorce. I've heard preachers say how wonderful heaven is and measure out the dementions of the new Jerusalem (roughly a cube of gold the size of Europe) and talk about how the Seraphim continually call out "holy holy holy is the Lord almighty who was and is and is to come" etc... I suggested to him that heaven is more than self indulging praise and emotional contentment. I suggest that angles played an important role in our salvation (messangers and proclaimers and constantly looking into these matters - academics?) So, what do you believe heaven will be like for believers?

It brought up another idea when considering Salvation. What are we saved unto? Most people point to one point of their life and say that is when I was saved. And then a subtext which is usually "my life changed completly after that" The thing in my mind is belief is only the first step salvation includes the whole process of righteousness long after we believe that stretches into Eternity. The later part with out the first part is not salvation for those of you thinking I'm coming from a works perspective. However, the later part not presented after the first part is not salvation either. We are saved unto good works. So, If I'm 'saved" and do no good works then my salvation is not effective or in play. In other words the result of salvation is good works. but thats not all either there is a transformation that occurs that we are made in the likeness of Christ the more we move forward with our salvation. (ie work out your salvation with fear and trembeling) Also there is the promise of the Resurection from the dead and eternity with God. The later part is what stopped my friend. What does that mean? How does it take effect? I believe there will be all sorts of unimaginable things to participate in without the constraints of sin. What do you think?

 

[bound]

I had this discussion with my neihbor who is thinking about going to church has this problem with Christianity. He doesn't see the point of going to heaven. He finds it boring thinking about praising God for eternity and not really being productive in anyway. And thinking about it I think how we present the plan of salvation (generally speaking) makes what he's saying a little valid. Believe on Jesus and be saved. Then you can go to heaven and have a right relationship with God and have the eternal reward of being close to him praising him etc...(including participating in a feast) I like reading CS Lewis who has a celtic influenced christian consept of eternity which is interesting especially when you read the great divorce. I've heard preachers say how wonderful heaven is and measure out the dementions of the new Jerusalem (roughly a cube of gold the size of Europe) and talk about how the Seraphim continually call out "holy holy holy is the Lord almighty who was and is and is to come" etc... I suggested to him that heaven is more than self indulging praise and emotional contentment. I suggest that angles played an important role in our salvation (messangers and proclaimers and constantly looking into these matters - academics?) So, what do you believe heaven will be like for believers?

It brought up another idea when considering Salvation. What are we saved unto? Most people point to one point of their life and say that is when I was saved. And then a subtext which is usually "my life changed completly after that" The thing in my mind is belief is only the first step salvation includes the whole process of righteousness long after we believe that stretches into Eternity. The later part with out the first part is not salvation for those of you thinking I'm coming from a works perspective. However, the later part not presented after the first part is not salvation either. We are saved unto good works. So, If I'm 'saved" and do no good works then my salvation is not effective or in play. In other words the result of salvation is good works. but thats not all either there is a transformation that occurs that we are made in the likeness of Christ the more we move forward with our salvation. (ie work out your salvation with fear and trembeling) Also there is the promise of the Resurection from the dead and eternity with God. The later part is what stopped my friend. What does that mean? How does it take effect? I believe there will be all sorts of unimaginable things to participate in without the constraints of sin. What do you think?

Grace and Peace,

First off, great question... :applause:

Give me some time to pray in order to give you a great answer. raying:

 

[Matt Black]

I'm quite uneasy with the concept of Christianity being merely about a free ticket to Heaven. Surely it's about becoming more and more Christ-like, through the Holy Spirit and His grace working within and through us, day by day, to death (and perhaps beyond) to achieve this goal; Heaven is but one facet of that 'conformity to His image'.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm quite uneasy with the concept of Christianity being merely about a free ticket to Heaven. Surely it's about becoming more and more Christ-like, through the Holy Spirit and His grace working within and through us, day by day, to death (and perhaps beyond) to achieve this goal; Heaven is but one facet of that 'conformity to His image'.

Well, I agree with you. I kind of look at it like this. Salvation is not just being set apart for favor with God and eternity but it alows us to be righteous. In otherwords we get to do good works that are valuable. Good works without it are useless but they become valuable with it. A poor example of how I think about this is this. You have a friend and there is a coke machine and you want a soda. Your friend says here is a dollar with which you can buy a soda (God offers salvation freind offers the soda) you can accept it to buy a soda (responce to Gods salvation). So you get the dollar but not doing anything with it is not getting the soda so it is fruitless (kind of like Good works sure you have salvation but like talents if you buried in the ground what kind of salvation is it? It is not thats why there are so many verses about bearing fruit and the fig tree these aren't just converting people but doing good works). Now you act on getting it and you get the Soda ( that salvation ended up in results which is the point of it) You are able to particpate (you get to do it not you have to do it) in the working of God. Like I said a poor example but salvation is not salvation if it doesn't produce its goal. Works are just a part of that goal the fig tree must bear fruit or its cut down and cast into the fire.

 

[bound]

Does either of you give any thought to the resurrection of the body as a physical reunion of our spirit with the body...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Does either of you give any thought to the resurrection of the body as a physical reunion of our spirit with the body...

Well, I'm not sure what you mean. A spirit is a spirit so a physical reunion? Will our spirit reunite with our bodies during the resurrection? I honestly haven't thought about the mechanics of it. I believe in a physical resurection. Most people believe we go to be with God when we die (our spirits) which await the resurection but others believe we "sleep". It's a good point for this thread because what happens after we die but before we are resurrected? What do we do if our spirits are with God? I know some believe that those with God intercedes for those living and how does the whole communication of the martyred in revelation asking when God will bring about his judgement play into it? You've put me on a new thought process. I was thinking after the resurrection but what about in between? Will it matter? Our spirits are eternal and outside of time so it may not be perceved as in between at all. However, the comments of those Martyred in heaven works against that. I don't know. Good question.

 

[DHK]

Ephesians 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, (ASV)

There is no such thing as a dead Christian according to Scripture, for the Holy Spirit has "quickened" him or made him alive. He was once dead but now he lives.
There are Christians that show little or no fruit in their lives, but they are not dead. They still have been made alive in Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Ephesians 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, (ASV)

There is no such thing as a dead Christian according to Scripture, for the Holy Spirit has "quickened" him or made him alive. He was once dead but now he lives.
There are Christians that show little or no fruit in their lives, but they are not dead. They still have been made alive in Christ.

How can you be alive if you're living in death? I know we struggle with sin. But that is not the same as living sinfully.

 

[DHK]

How can you be alive if you're living in death? I know we struggle with sin. But that is not the same as living sinfully.

There is a biblical definition of death. Define death.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There is a biblical definition of death. Define death.

Generally, death is accepted as seperation from God. How do you define death?

 

[rdwhite]

...So, what do you believe heaven will be like for believers?
...What are we saved unto?
...Also there is the promise of the Resurection from the dead and eternity with God. The later part is what stopped my friend. What does that mean? How does it take effect? I believe there will be all sorts of unimaginable things to participate in without the constraints of sin. What do you think?

I believe that at the rapture, those who are dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will be caught up to the Judgment Seat of Christ. At that judgment, Christians will be judged according to their works after salvation. We are saved unto good works. Salvation is not fire insurance. Based on that judgment, some will experience loss, some will be rewarded, and a few will receive great reward. I believe that those whose works are not burned up at the judgment will enter into the Kingdom to rule and reign with Christ for the thousand years.

During that thousand year period, we will have opportunity to experience and accomplish many things for the Lord and for our own pleasure. I hope to accomplish many things in that life that I am unable to accomplish in this life. I hope to fly, to travel to the bottom of the ocean, to scale the highest mountains, to see and experience God's creation. I hope to bring glory and honour to my Lord and Saviour as I carry out responsibilities that he will entrust to me.

After the thousand year reign and the Great White Throne Judgment, when God ushers in the age of eternity, I hope to accomplish awesome works for my God throughout the universe, things that I can only barely begin to imagine with my finite mind.

 

[DHK]

Generally, death is accepted as seperation from God. How do you define death?

Death = separation.

Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. (James 2:26)
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Spiritual death is separation from God spiritually.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eternal separation is separation from God for all eternity.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--Eternal life is contrasted to (eternal) death.

The Second Death is spoken of in Rev.20--the final and ultimate separation from God.

 

[billwald]

Dead Christians probably do the same things as live Christians but without the hangover and the STDs.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Dead Christians probably do the same things as live Christians but without the hangover and the STDs.

That has to be one of the most cynical statements I have ever heard.

 

[zrs6v4]

I had this discussion with my neihbor who is thinking about going to church has this problem with Christianity. He doesn't see the point of going to heaven. He finds it boring thinking about praising God for eternity and not really being productive in anyway. And thinking about it I think how we present the plan of salvation (generally speaking) makes what he's saying a little valid. Believe on Jesus and be saved. Then you can go to heaven and have a right relationship with God and have the eternal reward of being close to him praising him etc...(including participating in a feast) I like reading CS Lewis who has a celtic influenced christian consept of eternity which is interesting especially when you read the great divorce. I've heard preachers say how wonderful heaven is and measure out the dementions of the new Jerusalem (roughly a cube of gold the size of Europe) and talk about how the Seraphim continually call out "holy holy holy is the Lord almighty who was and is and is to come" etc... I suggested to him that heaven is more than self indulging praise and emotional contentment. I suggest that angles played an important role in our salvation (messangers and proclaimers and constantly looking into these matters - academics?) So, what do you believe heaven will be like for believers?

It brought up another idea when considering Salvation. What are we saved unto? Most people point to one point of their life and say that is when I was saved. And then a subtext which is usually "my life changed completly after that" The thing in my mind is belief is only the first step salvation includes the whole process of righteousness long after we believe that stretches into Eternity. The later part with out the first part is not salvation for those of you thinking I'm coming from a works perspective. However, the later part not presented after the first part is not salvation either. We are saved unto good works. So, If I'm 'saved" and do no good works then my salvation is not effective or in play. In other words the result of salvation is good works. but thats not all either there is a transformation that occurs that we are made in the likeness of Christ the more we move forward with our salvation. (ie work out your salvation with fear and trembeling) Also there is the promise of the Resurection from the dead and eternity with God. The later part is what stopped my friend. What does that mean? How does it take effect? I believe there will be all sorts of unimaginable things to participate in without the constraints of sin. What do you think?

I thought I'd throw out a new Christian's perspective. From the way I see what Jesus wants of us is to turn to Him and that seems to take care of beleif, trust, and faith and our life of disobedience. He doesnt really go around telling people that they need to be saved or drop down and ask Him to free them. From what I have found is that we give our lives to Christ and I honestly don't understand how some say they know the exact date or time although I dont question them, because I was a wreck when I turned to Jesus. I dont think it is always the case that we need to try to get anyone to make a decision on the spot, but rather leave that in Gods hands totally. So what I have been lead to do is make it simple and there are so many ways to put it that no matter who you are or how bad you've done that you need to hit the brakes and turn to Jesus. Its not a partial decision it is a yes or no question, a lose your life or gain it, a turn or not, an all or nothing. Only God can make this possible in someone and convict them truly.

Going back to what I have learned from my own life at about the time I turned to God is that Iwas given the strength and guidance that noone could understand unless they themselves had gone through it. All I knew was that Jesus was the savior and it was now or never at that point that I gave it all to Him honestly and turned. I can now see how God worked my whole life leading to that point, and that so much that I did in trust on Him was so biblical its amazing. God worked through many.

I knew that it wasnt that I needed to say a prayer, I needed to do some work or change something, or to be good in anyway which i was not capable of. It was all that I just turned it over to Jesus and the result was much open hearted prayer and honesty, choosing to change my ways, schedule, relationships, actions, and wants to do things for Him and new desires and openings. I didn't at the time of my turning quite everything immedietly but over a few months slowly gave into the work of the Holy Spirit who lead me.

So with all of that rambling being said I have to say for the rest of your post is that I dont think biblically that one can be a Christian and dead, fruitless, or anything of the sort. I have my blind spots in life, but I have nowhere to turn other than Jesus. I think Jesus speaks in results of truly giving your heart to Him, (Lord, Lord a using non devine false relationship). But if you truly give your heart to Him you will be disciplined and produce fruit, start to learn worship and love it, must pray and more so than ever, sacrifice in time for Jesus, not turn back to old ways, you will be witnessing because it is your life and for me it is inavoidable at times, praise God.

(from one Christian to another) I beleive that only God can lead you to a true repentance and a true turning point revealing your emptyness. We all were at once living in darkness and only He can reveal the light becasue He is the light. I had no clue or chance without Jesus and it amazes me to just flash back and see his mighty works that were so necessary. At the time I wasn't totally aware of how much God was doing, I was just shattered and confused knowing only that I wanted to live for Him. So while it was my 100% choice God divinely intervened and it was His 100% sovereignty in turning my heart to Him.

If you are confused just take it to the Master who is the only one who can help in any case that your in.

 

[DHK]

If you really want to look at this from a Biblical perspective, then consider that God's will for your life is to be dead. Yes, that is right God desires dead Christians.

1 Corinthians 15:31 .... I die daily.
--Every day Paul put himself to death. It was a daily practice.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
--A cross is an instrument of death. It was a mode of execution. Paul said that he was crucified (put to death) with Christ. He lived, but it was not him; it was Christ living in him. Paul was dead. Every day he put himself to death.

Jesus required death of his disciples.
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
--To take up one's cross daily is to die daily. The cross is a means of dying. It is the way our Lord died. Jesus desires dead Christians. Christians that are dead to self and alive to Christ.

Therefore:
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If you really want to look at this from a Biblical perspective, then consider that God's will for your life is to be dead. Yes, that is right God desires dead Christians.

1 Corinthians 15:31 .... I die daily.
--Every day Paul put himself to death. It was a daily practice.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
--A cross is an instrument of death. It was a mode of execution. Paul said that he was crucified (put to death) with Christ. He lived, but it was not him; it was Christ living in him. Paul was dead. Every day he put himself to death.

Jesus required death of his disciples.
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
--To take up one's cross daily is to die daily. The cross is a means of dying. It is the way our Lord died. Jesus desires dead Christians. Christians that are dead to self and alive to Christ.

Therefore:
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

even though I got side tracked with the salvation consept. I was thinking of literally or physically dead christians not spiritually dead christians

 

[DHK]

Generally, death is accepted as seperation from God. How do you define death?

I knew what you meant. Every true believer will show change in his life. He is a new creature. Old things are passed away; all things are become new. One might conclude: if there is no change, perhaps he was never saved in the first place.

Though God has not called us to judge, he has called us to be fruit inspectors.
He said: "By their fruit ye shall know them." The context of that verse was speaking of false teachers. The fruit was false doctrine. We can spot a false teacher by the doctrine (fruit) that he teaches.

But the Bible also speaks of the fruit of the Spirit. A true believer will show the fruit of the Spirit in his life. In this sense we might say that a fruitless Christian may be no Christian at all.
I wasn't looking to pick a fight, only to use language that conforms more with what the Bible says.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What do dead Christians do?

There are no 'dead' Christians. "He who has the Son, has LIFE; he who does not have the Son, does NOT have life!

The life of BOTH the dead and living in Christ, "with Christ, is hid in God". The altar of their suffering for Christ and with Christ, is their crown of life and victory -- of their "reign with Christ", "this the First Resurrection". They "shall not see death, but have passed from death, into LIFE". 'Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!'

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
"Death = separation."

GE:
Jn17:12b; 10:28