What do you all think of THIS?????

[D28guy]

I hope this is the right Forum for this. It *sort of* applies to the title of this board...although I'm primarily interested in what you guys think of how this other site handles things.

Someone recommended another Discussion web-site like this one to me, so I went over, took a user name, and posted. Since I was raised Catholic I seem to gravitate to Catholicism threads, since I fled it after being born again and now "see the Light" as they say regarding Catholicism.

Anyway, I posted a post over there and it was very quickly deleted and I recieved a warning about "flaming". In the warning they included the entire post that was such a horrible "flame", so I was able to copy it.

So, the topic was "what is your opinion of Catholicism", and you had several options. People also posted comments along with their selection. I selected the option "Un-favorable" regarding my opinion of Catholicism, and here is the post that I was reprimanded for and that was deleted...

In the poll I voted unfavorable, since I dont consider the Church of Rome to be Christian. Thats not to say that every single Catholic is automatically lost, but only that the organisation known as the Catholic Church of Rome I do not consider to be a legitimate christian organisation.

No group is perfect, but the Catholic Church has church sponsored goddess worship, blasphemous teachings and beliefs, heresies, and much that is nothing but christianised paganism.

I consider it to be in the same category as the Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons.(and yes, I believe its *possible* for their to be individuals who might be born again in those groups just like the Catholic Church)

The Catholic Church shares many of the same characteristics as those groups, such as extra-biblical, man made authority that is above the scriptures and the requirment that the laity submit to the authority of the organisations interpretations and rulings.

Sadly,

Mike

I responded back to the moderator...and the site administrator btw...who reprimanded me with this email...

Gwenyfur,

I appreciate your letting me know that this post was deleted, and I recieved your warning as well. I would very much appreciate it if you send me another private message in response to this one.

If you will read my deleted post you will see that I never in any way attacked any user of the Forum. I never told any user that they werent a christian. I even SPECIFICALLY mentioned that I of course believe that individual Catholic people can of course be christians. Regarding the Catholic Church I kindly, and respectfully shared...my...opinion.

I repeat. I simply...

Shared...my...opinion.

And I did it in a very civil and respectfull manner.

If a post as utterly benign and respectful as mine is deleted, and I am warned, then either a mistake has been made, or this board is extremely...EXTRAORIDNARILY...disfunctional. It would mean that this is a website where freedom of speech is denied, and censorship along the lines of NAZISM is practiced.

Please consider the gravity of what I am saying. I have been involved in discussion boards for a long time and this is waaaaay beyond anything I have ever seen. In no discussion board I have ever been a part of would a post as repectfully put as mine be considered as being "flaming".

In adition to responding to that, could you share with me who the group, organisation, or person is that is responsible for this board.

Specifically, I am curious as to whether this board is sponsored by the Catholic Church, or a Catholic organisation.

Respectfully,

Mike

What do you guys think of how this board "polices" discussion? To be honest, if the response back from them is that this was not a mistake, and they do in fact forbid any negative comment about any group, then I am just very thankful for the fact that here and others, we can express our kindly worded views frankly...without fear of the "brown boots" silencing us.

Mike

 

[grahame]

Hmm. Not sure you calling them Nazis helped your cause much. :laugh: I read your original post and I agree with it. Whether we should post what we think before we are a bit more familiar with the admin team is more debatable. I often make statements which I consider to be ok, only to find that some word or expression offends one or some who have moderators powers on that board and when you challenge them, you find yourself even more in deep water because either they have misunderstood you, or they have only taken part of what you have said and so made you out to be a trouble maker, even though you are not.
I used to know a Baptist minister who was converted from Catholicism. He always seemed to be more opposed to the Roman Church than someone who had never belonged to it. But reading your post I personally can't see anything much wrong with it. If as evangelicals we call the Roman Church a heresy or an apostate church, it seems quite logical. But if that board had Roman Catholics on the admin team, then it would be to them a blasphemous thing to say. In this day and age all the churches are running towards Rome in this great ecumenical bid to build one big unified world church. So to them your post would be seen as an afront to those people. Advice? Just don't post there any more. It's their board, so they can do what they like with it. So take the advice of our Lord in such situations, "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Just my opinion of course. If error offends people, then they may have a case. But if what you are saying is truth, then they are the ones with the problem. Leave them to it, if that's their attitude.

 

[amity]

Well, Mike, they DID ask! Since the poll was phrased the way it was, your answer was perfectly truthful and forthright. They should have allowed it, or else taken the poll down since its wording invites such answers.

On the other hand, your comments were extreme and intended to inflame. Obviously, the Catholic church does not see itself as worshipping a goddess, for example. If a Catholic read your comments, would they likely be influenced to question Catholicism, or just to conclude that Baptists were... well maybe not the most circumspect of people?

I wince when I read such statements. I feel they are an abuse of the liberty we have in Christ. Said in front of friends and family whom you know are sympathetic to what you are saying, they are excusable. Said in a public venue such as an internet forum, they are counterproductive, at best. Note there are much more diplomatic and effective ways to make the same points. Maybe something like:

"I have never felt comfortable with Catholic veneration of Mary. I am reminded of some of the practices of ancient Roman cults.." and then go on to give your CONCRETE EXAMPLES drawn from reputable sources. Let others draw the conclusion that this practice constitutes goddess worship, or not. There are some pretty good examples in the Wikipedia article on Maryolatry, so data supporting the point you are trying to make is not hard to find. Taking such an approach would be much more persuasive and less likely to draw down the wrath of the board administration.

 

[Chemnitz]

To be honest, Mike, I think you could have phrase your objections to the RCC in a far more tactful manner. There aren't many Christian boards that will put up with the level of heat the BB will put up with.

My first thought when reading your post is that any RCC person would just dismiss it as another post by an arrogant baptist.

 

[BobRyan]

Mike this is a good example of WHY I keep arguing that Catholic posters SHOULD be allowed and encouraged to come HERE.

The kind of discussion you are seeking is much less likely on a pro-Catholic site than it is here. The problem here is that when Catholics post and assert "we are right because we always say we are right" in strong terms they get bounced. But I can't imagine that anyone is seriously disuaded by such tactics who is not already inclined to listen to those other RC boards to start with.

And the up side is that by having those discussions here - NON Catholics improve their understanding of the gaps in the debate and so do Catholics!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Dustin]

I have a great advantage in that one of my former co-workers, a good friend in fact, is a hardcore Roman Catholic. More often than not we discuss the RC view as opposed to the Reformed view. One night we had a 3 hour discussion about justification by faith, and how doing good works ties into that. One of the things I was most suprised of is how accurate his understanding of the Reformation is.

He also said something that perplexed me. He said that the RC priest system priest sytem is based on the old Jewish preist system. It really is, if you want to look at it that way, except they give the order of Melchezidek (sp) to men, when Christ actually holds that office. That is a pretty vital piece of information, that I will expound upon next time we get into a discussion. And I never would have know that unless he had told me. I'll also bring up the Church order given in the NT.

While I do think Roman Catholicism is not Christian, it is vital to know where they stand on things, so that when you're talking (witnessing) to a Roman Catholic, you can show them waht the Bible says, and if God is willing, point them to Christ, and real biblical Christianity.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[bmerr]

Mike,

I'm with you. If they didn't want your opinion, they shouldn't have asked for it.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[D28guy]

Here is a link to a page from the forum in question. I've never quite seen a forum with the type of graphics and such that this one has. Scroll down and take a look...

http://www.christianforums.com/t4919371&page=2

I recieved a response to my PM message that I sent back to them...

"This post was not viewed as benign by the Theology Team of moderators.

It would be no different than if I posted "The Pentacostal movement is not Christian because I feel their practises aren't biblical."

No matter how polite, if a group or person identifies themselves as Christian, it's not your place, nor mine, to judge their Christianity. That's putting ourselves in Y'shua's place. Only His judgements are righteous and true. Ours are flawed by our limited knowledge and sinful natures.

For the record, Erwin is a protestant, and the owner of the board.

As for the accusation of Nazism...well...think as you will. This is an international board. We have members from all over the globe. I can tell you that just as with yelling fire in a theatre...there are still rules attached to free speech...even online.

You can find a complete listing of the CF rules HERE. You agreed to them when you joined. By registering, you also agreed to abide by them. They will be enforced with equality and fairness no matter what icon you carry. They are universal for *all* of CF.

If you have any further questions, feel free to PM and ask at any time. It's my job to help."

Regarding this...

"It would be no different than if I posted "The Pentacostal movement is not Christian because I feel their practises aren't biblical."

If I respond back to this email I'll share with her that as a pentecostal it wouldnt bother me in the least if she said that to me in a post. Why would it?

"No matter how polite, if a group or person identifies themselves as Christian, it's not your place, nor mine, to judge their Christianity."

It most certainly is. We are told to "Test all things, hold fast to that which is good." The Bereans were commended because they "searched the scriptures daily" to test all doctrine.

Mike

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Here is a link to a page from the forum in question. I've never quite seen a forum with the type of graphics and such that this one has. Scroll down and take a look...

http://www.christianforums.com/t4919371&page=2

D28guy

Personally, I would drop the argument. If someone registered on the BB and questioned whether or not Baptist were in fact Christians, they’d be warned and probably banned. Most people of other Denominations don’t like people questioning their salvation. When that happens, name calling is sure to follow...

In addition I tried Christian Forums and don’t like the format. If you really want to debate Catholics and are serious, since Catholics get banned here on the BB, I can direct you to a few Catholic Boards. They would love to have you over, and some members are former BB members turned Catholic after the great BB purge some years ago. And BTW, these aren't your run of the mill street Catholics either, who get confused over the term 'born again', most are steeped in all areas of Catholicism, early Church History and the Reformation.

Just PM me for the sites…

-

 

[DQuixote]

Well ......... d28guy, you were less than tactful in your approach, resulting in their response. Amity writes well on the subject --- I think most of us, including me, should read it a couple of times.

Anyway......... I wouldn't go there anymore. The POVs here are often troubling. In spite of best efforts by some, I know of no one who has changed his or her mind. Faceless encounters in a war of words accomplish little, if anything. I'm as guilty as anyone of getting caught up in the war of words. This isn't the only Christian site I've visited --- none has changed my POV one whittle, and my spiritually-guided assertions haven't overwhelmed anyone's mind ---- (sneaky, huh? :laugh: )

 

[grahame]

No matter how polite, if a group or person identifies themselves as Christian, it's not your place, nor mine, to judge their Christianity. That's putting ourselves in Y'shua's place. Only His judgements are righteous and true. Ours are flawed by our limited knowledge and sinful natures.

I would disagree with that observation on two counts (1) We are called to make such judgments. Not to judge a person, which you had not done in your post. But we are called to try the spirits whether they be of God. You made a Biblical assessment of Roman Catholicism in your post. You jdged Catholicism to be unbiblical, which it is. Doctor Martin Lloyd-Jones once asked a friend of his (who was a Catholic) if he could see the Roman Catholic church in the Bible. His Catholic friend said that he could not.
(2) You answered their own question, which was

"what is your opinion of Catholicism"

This you did honestly as far as I can see. Therefore they had no right, whether you were tactful or not, to delete your post. I personally think that we in this day and age are too polite where error is concerned. You should read some of the old timers and the way they condemn Catholicism. And even some of the early Fathers against heretics. And what's with this high follutin' politically correct language. Who is "Y'shua" for goodness sake. Just because the Jewish Christians call Jesus by that name, doesn't mean we ought to. At least I think they mean Jesus?

 

[Darron Steele]

From other board, as quoted in the opening post of this thread:

In the poll I voted unfavorable, since I dont consider the Church of Rome to be Christian. Thats not to say that every single Catholic is automatically lost, but only that the organisation known as the Catholic Church of Rome I do not consider to be a legitimate christian organisation.

No group is perfect, but the Catholic Church has church sponsored goddess worship, blasphemous teachings and beliefs, heresies, and much that is nothing but christianised paganism.

I consider it to be in the same category as the Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons.(and yes, I believe its *possible* for their to be individuals who might be born again in those groups just like the Catholic Church)

The Catholic Church shares many of the same characteristics as those groups, such as extra-biblical, man made authority that is above the scriptures and the requirment that the laity submit to the authority of the organisations interpretations and rulings.

Sadly,

Mike

Here is what I would have had a problem with.

I know many non-Catholics do not like to accept this, but Catholics do not believe in "goddess worship." They do not believe in any goddesses, and they believe that by engaging in worship-like activity to Mary, they are properly worshiping God. While this is certainly wrong, it is not "goddess worship."

If I was moderating a board that aimed at CIVIL dialogue between members of different church-related faiths, I could not accept this post. When a poster, out of hostility to any group, makes accusations that are false, it threatens that atmosphere.

Also, such postings could cause a `sour taste,' creating a feeling of hostility toward the accusing group. When someone tells people that they believe/practice things that they really do not, it is more likely to cause bad feelings as opposed to get a productive discussion going.

I hope what I am posting here is taken the best way.

 

[grahame]

Well it may not seem like goddess worship. Indeed Catholics probably do not see this themselves. But the plain facts are that they refer to Mary as "The mother of God" and in certain countries parade an image of Mary through the streets in certain festivities. We are told not to make any graven image. Although this may not strictly be "goddess" worship, nevertheless it does give this impression to many of those looking on. Muslims for one. Also we must remember that our friend who began this post was a Roman Catholic and he certainly got this impression when he was in the Roman church. Also if you watch Roman Catholics praying with their Rosary you would get the same impression when every prayer begins with "Holy Mary Mother of God".

 

[Eliyahu]

D28,

I support you any way. May God help you with all His wisdom and power.

eliyahu

 

[mima]

I totally agree with your judgment of the Roman Catholic Church. I also believe that the moderators were unjustified in the rejecting your answer. One of the things that I have found out in life is the truthfulness of this statement," the hardest viewpoint to have accepted is the correct one." That statement even holds true in pure science like mathematics.

 

[Darron Steele]

...Although this may not strictly be "goddess" worship,...

Thank you.

It is not.

...nevertheless it does give this impression to many of those looking on. ...

Impressions do not make it so.

... you would get the same impression when every prayer begins with "Holy Mary Mother of God".

That is when you ask what they mean, and what they mean is `Mary the Mother of God the Son,' rather than accuse them inaccurately or deceptively.

Proverbs 18:13 says “He that giveth |sentence in a matter| before he heareth, It is folly and shame unto him” (ASV|BishB|ASV).

Please take this the best way. Years ago, my attitude was as follows: `If I can find any pretense to accuse this wrong church group, whether factual or not, it is okay to do it because the group is wrong.'

After some time, much of it unpleasant, I learned more fully that the most important things about a Christian's walk is daily life. I also realized from this that actions that would be sins out in the world are sins in religious settings as well.

Luke 3:14b says "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely" (KJV). It is not right in secular life, and it is not right in religious life. The Lord is NEVER served when we do what He taught against, especially when claiming to be `serving the Lord.'

 

[Darron Steele]

Originally an accidental repeat post -- deleted by myself.

 

[D28guy]

Grahame,

"
Well it may not seem like goddess worship. Indeed Catholics probably do not see this themselves. But the plain facts are that they refer to Mary as "The mother of God" and in certain countries parade an image of Mary through the streets in certain festivities. We are told not to make any graven image. Although this may not strictly be "goddess" worship, nevertheless it does give this impression to many of those looking on. Muslims for one. Also we must remember that our friend who began this post was a Roman Catholic and he certainly got this impression when he was in the Roman church. Also if you watch Roman Catholics praying with their Rosary you would get the same impression when every prayer begins with "Holy Mary Mother of God".

In adition, they pray to her, meaning they believe she is omnipresent, they ask her to bless them, help and comfort them. They sometimes expect her to grant visitations, perform miracles, and they sometimes entrust the entire world to her care and ask her "protection".

That is a Goddess, and that is worship.

Mike

 

[Darron Steele]

Grahame,



In adition, they pray to her, meaning they believe she is omnipresent, they ask her to bless them, help and comfort them. They sometimes expect her to grant visitations, perform miracles, and they sometimes entrust the entire world to her care and ask her "protection".

That is a Goddess, and that is worship.

Mike

Do they make her omnipotent? No. Do they put her above or equal to God? No. I am also unaware of any Catholic who believes that Mary does not hear their prayers in Heaven.

They make her a powerful being whom Christ honors the wishes of, but to them, she is not God. To them, there is only one God, Who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Since to them she is beneath God, the worship-like activity they engage in toward her is not worship. It is improper behavior, but it is not worship.

 

[D28guy]

Darron,

You are grasping at straws. You are too hung up on what they CALL it, rather than what it IS.

No Catholic is going to come right out and say "Ok, lets now begin our Goddess worship of Mary..."Hail Goddess Mary, full of Grace...."

But that is in fact what is going on. They atribute to Mary attributes that only God has, they pray to her, and they expect from her things that only God can give and do.

Mike