What do you all think of THIS?????

[Darron Steele]

D28guy: You asked for input as to why a post elsewhere was deleted. You got it. On sites where discussions are confined to civil discussion about what is true of people, posts like that will always be deleted. You might as well know that for future reference.

You will believe and assert whatever you want. It is you who are gasping at straws to substantiate accusations that are bogus. It appears that your `heels are dug in,' and I am not inclined to waste further effort. I wish you would make a different decision because ultimately it does not affect me.

It will not be me you answer to after our affairs here are over. I understand and appreciate your zeal to object to what is errant, and to try to lead people away from errant religious systems. However, when such activity gets to doing what the Lord taught against, it is sin. For your persistence in false accusations of some people you and I both disagree with, you will Romans 14:12 "give account" to the Lord.

 

[amity]

Note that the questions of whether Catholic veneration of Mary is justified by scripture, whether it consitutes worship, whether it constitutes idolatry, etc., are not the question posed by the original post. The only question is whether the board administration was justified in removing the post.

Even though I might tend to agree with you when it came down to brass tacks, Mike, the fact is your post to the other board amounts to groundless accusation because you just made assertions with nothing at all to back them up. If you had provided your reasoning and a few sources, and also phrased your point less offensively, it could have been a gold star post! But as it was, it just generated a great deal of heat and no light at all.

THAT is why I would have removed it.

 

[BobRyan]

Grahame,

In adition, they pray to her, meaning they believe she is omnipresent, they ask her to bless them, help and comfort them. They sometimes expect her to grant visitations, perform miracles, and they sometimes entrust the entire world to her care and ask her "protection".

That is a Goddess, and that is worship.

Mike

That is true. In fact Hindus have 3 main gods and then millions of lesser gods - many 1000's of whom fall far below the level and power of Mary.

But the question that arises from the OP is how best to tell them that on their own message board. There is certainly a fast way to get kicked off that board or have posts deleted -- and you found it. But is there yet another way to reach them and let them know that it is long past time to step out of the superstitions of the dark ages -- that is the real question here.

A way to find an opening door that will be accepted by them -- or at least tolerated.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

For example - here is a post that uses strictly RCC sources but they would reject even their OWN sources if the title associated with it - showed the true importance of the quotes as in the following --

The goddess Mary in the RCC as CoRedemptrix -

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25
[/quote]


In a 1985 address at the Marian shrine in Guayaquil, Ecuador, Pope John Paul II said:

"Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption....Crucified spiritually with her crucified son




(cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen Gentium, 58)....In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity....In fact, Mary's role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]).

 

[BobRyan]

here is another quote of a real RC pope that would be totally rejected on an RC message board if it were to have the curtain of obfuscation withdrawn as in the following example --

Some of our Catholic brethren have argued that "you never find us worshipping Mary".

Let us put that to the test with a sample prayer that WE INVENT as applying to both Christ and Mary –

A fictional prayer to Jesus AS GOD –

"Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we your devoted servants are Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and yet impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, AND into the arms of Mary. Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. To Christ and to Mary we make appeal that you Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church.

In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of our people." (-- No reference given for this example BECAUSE this text includes Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ --

In this form it would appear that all this praise, prayer, honor, veneration and glory to Christ also applies in some way to Mary and so non-Catholics would take this as an example of gross error.

So – we sure are glad that it is not out there.

However the truth is that the prayer above is merely an EDITED version of an actual prayer authored by the Papacy itself.

To “correct” the quote – we merely REMOVE ALL references to Christ!!

WORSHIP at Mary’s Altars

Corrected prayer to be the actual prayer offered to the RCC goddess – Mary

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950

 

[BobRyan]

Finally - if you quote RC sources in a way that contrast their "all powerful" goddess against the lesser gods of the hindu religion then even THOSE RC sources would be banned on an RC site.

Hindus have 3 main all powerful gods followed by about 3 million lesser gods. Many of whom turn out to be far less powerful than the RC goddess Mary.


All Powerful Mary – Appealing to the RCC goddess Mary as all-powerful

"Is the Blessed Virgin powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants? Yes. [b]The Blessed Virgin is powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants[/b], that is, those who from the bottom of their hearts without ceasing ask her to help them to rise from sin, to live in the light of the Gospel, and to die in the love of God."
- Short Catechism Of Mary, Cardinal Charles Journet, pg 56

More on the all powerful status of the RC goddess - Mary

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

[b]"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth[/b] that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

"She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

"With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to [bvenerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God[/b], conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,
while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus

 

[BobRyan]

Of course to a true devotee - such quotes from Popes and RC leaders would mean nothing if they in fact expose flaws in the RC worship practices. The important thing would be to "deny all and remain RC at any cost".

I say that NOT because I think that the RCC or it's members are any more devoted or illogical in their blind acts of clinging to tradition over reason than any of the rest of us!

I see it on this board every week and can easily find it in any church I visit - even my own denomination. I simply raise this glaring spector of "blind devotion no matter what the facts" as a clear example to all of where blind devotion to man-made tradition can lead. It is a trait of human nature - and not something unique to the RCC.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[grahame]

I was wondering whether to answer the posts Bob, but you have beat me to it and done a far more excellent job that I would probably have done. I do fear that many Protestants have forgotten why the Protestant Reformers rejected Roman Catholic teachings. Of course we may argue that both Protestants and Catholics have murdered one another in the past. But what many Protestants have forgotten was why the English Reformers died at the hands of the Roman Church. It was simply because they denied the Roman Catholic Mass. The denied the doctrine of transubstantiation. That the bread and the wine turned into the actual body and blood of Christ at the mass. The Roman church has not changed one iota of this doctrine.
This is why I would have protested if it was my post that was deleted by a suposedly Christian forum. The Prorestant Reformers called the Mass a damnable heresy and they were right. I fear very much that many Protestant believers have forgotten the roots from whence they have sprung. Heresy must be exposed for what it is at every opportunity.

 

[BobRyan]

Good point Grahame but remember that those sufferring and dying protestants where in fact "protesting Catholic saints" who found error inside their OWN church and were awakened to it enough to complain and object to it.

Oh that we all could have the courage and insight of those dark-ages Catholic "protesters" who would denounce error EVEN if it was in their own church!

 

[Joe]

There is nothing wrong with your post. You didn't question anyone's salvation and you complied with the question properly by giving the answer, otherwise, your opinion. I am surprised at other's responses here.


I doubt your wording would have made any difference regarding your contact with the moderators and the reasons for your deleted post. Yet In

 

[grahame]

Good point Grahame but remember that those sufferring and dying protestants where in fact "protesting Catholic saints" who found error inside their OWN church and were awakened to it enough to complain and object to it.

Oh that we all could have the courage and insight of those dark-ages Catholic "protesters" who would denounce error EVEN if it was in their own church!

Yes, I was thinking that when I was writing it. It was only as they began to read their Bibles that they saw that the whole system was corrupt and antichristian. We just have to read Luther's 95 Theses to see that. Also we must remember that the church was not completely reformed and that the Rerformers didn't come out of Rome, they were excommunicated by the Pope. Also I agree with you about reforming a church from "inside". Almost impossible. You try and tell Baptists they are wrong on certain things and you'll soon find out what persecution is. :laugh: I have an admiration for those Catholics who come out of Rome. I have also argued with Roman Catholic theologians and my view of Catholics has changed over the years. I found some of them to be very gracious people. So this is not an attack on any individual Catholic. But it is a protest against the Roman Catholic church and system. But then, as you imply, that is an easy thing to do when we are "outside" of that church. By the way, we think that we have the truth? Well they do as well and view all non Catholics as the lost sheep who need to come back to the true church.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Good point Grahame but remember that those sufferring and dying protestants where in fact "protesting Catholic saints" who found error inside their OWN church and were awakened to it enough to complain and object to it.

Oh that we all could have the courage and insight of those dark-ages Catholic "protesters" who would denounce error EVEN if it was in their own church!

GE:

First I must and gladly does congratulate you on your excellent posts on Mary-worship, Bob!

Now for this here post of yours . . . . ever thought of applying the principle of it to your own Church?

 

[D28guy]

DQuiote

"In spite of best efforts by some, I know of no one who has changed his or her mind. Faceless encounters in a war of words accomplish little, if anything. I'm as guilty as anyone of getting caught up in the war of words. This isn't the only Christian site I've visited --- none has changed my POV one whittle, and my spiritually-guided assertions haven't overwhelmed anyone's mind"

Not that you KNOW of. Mostly what goes on on boards like these is seed planting. Several people witnessed to me regarding my lost condition back in the late 70's. I walked away from every one of them remaining a lost person. Not one of them has any idea that about 3 years later, after moving to another city, I changed my mind regarding what they had to say and was born again.

Talking and sharing viewpoints DOES make a difference.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Darron,

"You will believe and assert whatever you want. It is you who are gasping at straws to substantiate accusations that are bogus. It appears that your `heels are dug in,' and I am not inclined to waste further effort. I wish you would make a different decision because ultimately it does not affect me."

Well, 1st of all...let me remind you that I attacked absolutly no one personally in my post.

In reponse to their request for peoples opinion of Catholicism, I simply gave mine. And there is nothing wrong with getting right to the point and being blunt. People communicate in different ways. Some take ten paragraphs to say what can be said in 10 words. Others, like me, are more straighforward and direct. Theres nothing wrong with being that way.

The apostle Paul was very direct sometimes. He said things that made people gnash their teeth. He once said..."Have I become your enemy for telling you the truth?". Everywhere he went he either caused a revival or a riot. I dont think Paul is too bad of a person to be like.

I'm comfortable with how I post. I'm just a "straight shooter" in conversation.

"It will not be me you answer to after our affairs here are over. I understand and appreciate your zeal to object to what is errant, and to try to lead people away from errant religious systems. However, when such activity gets to doing what the Lord taught against, it is sin. For your persistence in false accusations of some people you and I both disagree with, you will Romans 14:12 "give account" to the Lord."

Now, do you realise that there are some people who are so ultra sensitive that they would consider that to be a personal attack and take issue with it? I certainly dont, but some would.

I know very well to whom I will give account, and I have great trust in His fairness and ability to know my heart.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DQuiote

Quote:
"In spite of best efforts by some, I know of no one who has changed his or her mind. Faceless encounters in a war of words accomplish little, if anything. I'm as guilty as anyone of getting caught up in the war of words. This isn't the only Christian site I've visited --- none has changed my POV one whittle, and my spiritually-guided assertions haven't overwhelmed anyone's mind"

Not that you KNOW of. Mostly what goes on on boards like these is seed planting. Several people witnessed to me regarding my lost condition back in the late 70's. I walked away from every one of them remaining a lost person. Not one of them has any idea that about 3 years later, after moving to another city, I changed my mind regarding what they had to say and was born again.

Talking and sharing viewpoints DOES make a difference.

God bless,

Mike

GE:

It shouldn't be one's purpose to change others' minds, but to change one's own -- to one's own views tested and weighed, worthy of holding or not. Discussion through and instrument like BB should be for the right objectives.

I have changed some of my own views, through having had them tested on this Board. I - just humanly - haven't hung them on the sign-boards for every one. Even changes of mind or opinion should mature -- over considerable time sometimes.

On the other hand through debating through the very efficient Babtist Board (i-technically speaking) I have found that I have been much better persuaded of some of my own opinions. So it has been for my own good.

Then the Scriptures somewhere tells us how the saints conversed together to the glory of God (or something to the effect, I can't remember the verse.). That is a very noble motive for taking part on this Board.

One is trained in his knowledge of the Scriptures;
One is often humbled by one's own faults, flaws and incompetency;
One enjoys others' eptness - which often I myself fall short in;

And, to me, very importantly, one is offered and privileged to receive without any obligation or indebtedness, a free and widely read forum, for one's own findings obtained through years of isolated and private study. For that I am very grateful, and my gratefulness, is reward enough to myself, to find great value in such a help as babtist Board.