What do you think

I don't watch t.v. preachers and the only exposure I've had to J.O. is small bits while channel surfing.

I do have some close friends in the Houston area who are familiar with Lakewood, and they tell me that Lakewood Church and Joel Osteen are the real deal. The Sunday Morning service at Lakewood (what you see on the tube) is very much a seeker service and is by design not for you deep theological thinkers/debaters. If you are a mature Christian, you are not the intended audience. However, the service you see on t.v. is only a small fraction of the ministry and discipleship going on at Lakewood.

So Don't judge Lakewood Church or Joel Osteen based only on what makes it on the t.v. In fact, it's safe to say that you would be far more productive worrying about what God has called you to do.

 

I say it is hard to know and judge one's motives.

And I agree with Paul: "Whether or not their motives are pure, the fact remains that the message about Christ is being preached, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice" (Phil 1.15-19).

Osteen believes the Bible is the Word of God. He believes salvation is through Jesus Christ. He believes in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Therefore, I rejoice the message of Christ is being preached. Whether or not his preferred style is mine is simply irrelevant.

Christians should be known by what they are for far more than they are known for what they are against.

 

What I have seen and heard from Osteen, in both his messages and articles about him, render him very suspect at the very least. He does not preach much of a gospel, if any at all. He is a motivational speaker. I have seen no evidence of a biblical gospel in his presentation.

 

Based on what I heard from him, for a long time I didn't even know he was a pastor. That is, until I saw his latest book in the religious books section at Wal-Mart.

 

Hey Servant,

Not judging you at all. I re-read what I wrote and I can see where it came across that way. Not my intent at all. That was intended as a general statement and was not directed to you at all.

Instead of the word judging I'll use "making an asessment". And the point I was making is don't make an assessment of Lakewood Church or Joel Osteen based only on what you see on t.v. As stated before, my total listening time to J.O. is probably 15 minutes max. I have read a few things he has written and so far have not heard anything I have disagreed with.

I'm guessing, based on what my friends have told me about Lakewood is that the sermon is not intended to be the final Gospel presentation, but rather a hook (for lack of a better word) that begins the discussion that leads to the Gospel presentation. That ministry time does not end when the camaras stop rolling.

That's not the way it's done in most Baptist churches, but that doesn't make it wrong. It's also not wrong that he chooses to fish using the benefits of a relationship with Christ for bait as oppposed to using the negative results of not knowing Christ.

I also wonder why we as Baptist get so upset when someone makes the presention of the Gospel simple. The truth of the matter is it is simple. The Good News of Jesus Christ is very simple. Why do we feel compelled to make it complicated? Jesus said that the way is narrow. We read that and we think that Narrow has to mean hard. Narrow doesn't mean hard, doesn't mean steep, doesn't mean difficult. It simply means - it's narrow.

Jesus invites us to take his yoke. And then he says that his yoke is easy and his burden is light. In Jesus day young students would choose a rabbi and attach themselves to that rabbi to learn their doctrine. The particular doctrine, or view of doctrine taught by a rabbi was known as his yoke. When a student attached himself to a rabbi he was taking that rabbi's yoke. That makes so much sense when Jesus says "Take up my yoke and learn from me" And when he says his yoke is easy, he's saying his doctrine is easy, his theology is easy. It takes a bunch of preachers to make this thing complicated. And if Joel O. has the ability to make the Gospel presentation simple and easy and grow his church to over 30k, I pray God will continue blessing him and Lakewood reaches 60k as soon as possible.

 

I am not upset that someone makes a presentation fo the gospel simple. What bothers me is that Osteen doesn't appear to have much of a gospel at all. I heard a message from him in which he referenced only one verse (out of context), misquoted another verse (and gave the reference for neither), talked about "letting go of the past" without ever talking about sin and selfishness, the love and forgiveness of God which enables us to forgive. He mentioned in his closing something about repentance without ever talking about what repentance was or why it was needed. It was a truly pathetic message for which there can be excuse.

 

I don't know the particular church or minister referred to here, but it sounds like a church in my city that has caused me great concern.

I preach a lot about love, but I don't think love requires .... "accepting everything". I think it requires a loving spirit when you correct. In many of these super large churches I see things that concern me in that they seem to send a message that they accept anything.

For instance, I really, really, really dislike churches having classes for certain "issues". I'll pick on the classes for divorced because I think every SBC church offers them now. I think they need to go away.

I have heard a thousand reasons for them, but they just come across like "dating clubs to me." God's message is God's message. Whether I am single, married, widowed or divorced - I should be in God's house to hear God's word, not to "feel better about myself," and I am there to fellowship with other Christians, not a certain social group.

The message in that particular group is, I'm told, meant to be, "God loves you, and we love you, and we're here to help you get past what happened to you." Well, God and hopefully your church, loves you in that regular class with Christians whose marriages held up too. And the message that comes across seems to be, "Hey, divorce is fine," and that isn't what God taught. If you need proof of that, look at the huge number of Baptist who have divorced since we started offering divorced classes. You can love the person who is divorced without pretending God condones divorce.

 

Well, I couldn't say for sure what J.O. preaches, so I decided to go straight to the horses mouth for the truth. From a sermon titled "The Truth Of The Resurrection"

QUOTE: "See, the Bible says in Hebrews that Jesus took His own blood and He didn't go to the Holy of Holies, but He went into the very heavens itself. And He presented His own blood in the high court of heaven as a sacrifice for all of our sins, past, present, and future.
And see, friends, the good news of Resurrection Sunday, the reason we can celebrate today, is because God gladly, with great joy and pleasure, He accepted the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. And now no longer do we have sin to hang on us and to drag us down to hell. The price has already been paid once and for all. Isn't that good news? (Congregation applauds)

See, and the Bible says that Jesus obtained an eternal redemption for our sins. One translation says, "an eternal release from our sins." See, friends, we don't have to be redeemed once a year anymore. We have been eternally redeemed not by the blood of bulls and goats, but by the blood--the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
See you can't get any better than that. And that's why I can get up here today with great joy and enthusiasm. Because I've got good news to tell you, you don't have to go to hell. Your sins have already been forgiven. All you've got to do is accept this forgiveness and make Jesus the Lord of your life."

 

From a sermon titled "The Great Commission"

QUOTE: But sometimes we live in this fantasy world where we think we're going to come to this place in life, you know, somewhere over the rainbow, just like the movies, we're going to live happily ever after with no more problems. But friends, if we're not careful, we will allow the enemy to deceive us into waiting around and doing nothing for God until this so called problem free life exists. Satan loves for God's people to procrastinate. Friends, what we do for God, we must do now. And the hour is too late for any of us to live with an inward focus where we're only concerned about our own needs. That's so shortsighted. That's such small thinking. God's already promised us that He's going to take care of us. He's promised us that He will never leave us nor forsake us. There's a whole world out there that has never even felt the life-changing power of Jesus Christ. Millions and millions of people are hurting, they're lonely, they're in pain. They don't even know what real love is. And the only way we're going to really shake this city and make a positive, powerful impact on people all over this world is for every single one of us to do our part and go out of here like flames of fire and share God's love and mercy and forgiveness with people in need.

Think about what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 10. "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." See, the Good News is that your sins have already been forgiven. The price has already been paid. Jesus willingly died on that cross and shed His own blood as a sacrifice for all your mistakes and all your failures and all your shortcomings. And now all you have to do is accept this free gift of salvation and make Jesus the Lord of your life. God made it so easy. But sometimes religion with all its rules and regulations and do's and don'ts, it gives us a false idea of what God is really like." END QUOTE

Wow! I may have a new favorite preacher!

[ May 24, 2005, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: guitarpreacher ]

 

It does not matter what Osteen says or does - enough is never "enough" for some people.

Again, his style and method may be different than yours, but it does not make him any less evangelical or orthodox.

I am glad that we are not the determiners of how much is enough gospel. I would say the quote above by Osteen sums it up well.

I do an awesome Osteen impression by the way

 

The ending to a sermone titled "The Battle For Your Mind" I read most of this one and it was a very good teaching on spiritual warfare and the reality of the devil and his infuence in our world.

QUOTE: "Well y’all are so easy to talk to. And it’s a joy for me to share with you. If you’d bow your heads in prayer? And I never like to close the broadcast until we give you an opportunity to give your life to Jesus. You know one of the biggest tragedies is for Satan to blind your mind of really accepting Jesus as your Lord. And it’s not something hard to do. All you’ve got to do is call upon the name of the Lord. And I just want to pray a simple prayer with you. If you’ll repeat it after me and mean it, God will change your life.

Just say, Jesus, come into my heart and save me. Be my Lord. Be my Savior. I repent of my old sins, my former sins. God, I’m going to serve You all the days of my life.

Listen, I believe you prayed that prayer. Listen, what you need to do is get in a good church that teaches the Bible. If you can come to Lakewood, we’d love to have you. If you can’t come here, go to a church in your neighborhood, one that believes the Bible. Support that church. You know, be a disciple there. Learn the things of God and you’ll never regret giving your life to God. He’ll do you nothing but good. I’m not saying you’re not going to have some challenges. But He will show you how to overcome in every one of them. God bless you.

 

Servant said, "Dont get me wrong Im not judging anyone that is why I titled the post what do you think,"

Then Servant said, "the problem is that he does not give a gospel message."

I can't reconcile those two. It sounds to me like your mind is already made up.

 

So I understand where you're coming from, what would he have to say in order for it to be considered a Gospel message?

Again, I don't watch tv preachers. None. But when I went to the Lakewood Church website, the transcripts are there for free, and I only looked at three and all three had a pretty clear presentation of the Gospel.

(Okay, I'll confess. I do from time to time see a particularly energetic preacher as I'm channel surfing and I'll turn the sound off just watch the gestures and mannerisms. Now that's entertainment Robert Tilton was by far the best. I sure miss him.)

 

I lived in Houston for a few years and I don't remember much of an alternative to an SBC church. There are over 500 SBC churches Houston.

That may be part of the reason why the growth. Not everyone wants to go to a Southern Baptist Church.

 

Osteen is a prosperity preacher, something contradictory to the gospel of Scripture. Studying Hebrews 11:32-40 reminds once again of how far off Osteen's "gospel" is. He intentionally does not talk about sin, and he says so. He wants to be positive and upbeat. The fact that people are defending him is a sad statement on modern day biblical literacy.