What does Romans 8:16 mean?

[xdisciplex]

Hi everybody!
Thanks for your replies, I just wanted to let you know that I'm totally busy at the moment and don't know when I'll have time to reply but I'll do it when I have time to.
So thanks for the replies and stay tuned.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by xdisciplex:
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I have no clue what this means.
Does this mean that a christian has something like an inner voice from the holy spirit?
Or how does he witness? A voice? A feeling? What is it?

I find it hard to believe that I missed this thread for so long - it is one of my favorite topics.

The fact is that the various answers to this point show the degree of variation that is possible if you are looking for an answer. Many of them also sound good.

First of all - though you might sometimes get an inner voice telling you to "turn left now" or "buy the blue one" -- that is pretty unnusual to say the least.

So going to scripture what is the "guaranteed" witness that everybody is going to get??

In 1 Cor 12 we have a list of the gifts of the Spirit - but the text is explicit about the fact that no one of them is a guaranteed gift to ALL the saints! So that is out as the sure fire 100% "witness" to all saints that they are the children of God.

In Matt 7 we see that the "problem" of thinking that you are IN when in fact you are out -- is very real!

The beauty of the Romans 8:16 promise is that it is the perfect solution to the Matt 7 problem of not really really KNOWING if you are really in or just "fooling yourselve into thinking you are IN".

Ask anyone - nobody says "I am just fooling myself so I can be surprised at the end when it turns out that really I am lost".

The sure fire - external witness thing is the only solution. Yet we can all admit - there is no objective external neon sign flying around with the "confirmation" letters on it for "you" individually!

The stupic hat trick of saying "you thought you were in but you were not really really really thinking you were in so you are out" is totally bogus and not a Bible principle at all!!

In John 14 Christ identifies a unique - discernable gift given to all the saved. In Gal 5 at the end of the chapter we learn that this is given by the Holy Spirit to all the saints. In Phil 4 we find that it is so powerful it goes even beyond understanding.

It is the gift of peace "NOT as the world gives - ". Christ states that this is found only in salvation. Peace "imagined" is no peace at all and it is certainly not "beyond" all known understanding. Rather it is totally unknown and purely imagined.

So this is not "imagined peace" - but those of Matt 7 who imagine themselves to be saved - have in fact got "imagined peace" not the real peace of Christ that passes understanding.

So that begs the question - "do I have it"?? If you blindly answer "yes because I am saved" then once again - you merely fool yourself and have confined your walk with Christ to shaky uncertain self-deceiving ground.

The point of this promise is that an EXERTERNAL relationship is formed and a transaction takes place experientially day by day where you "recieve the witness" of the Holy Spirit.

If you are going to be honest with yourself you have to admit that you don't get that - at least most of the saints don't.

If we take the time to spend with God in mediation and prayer - then yes - you can get this every time. But to claim that your busy rush-a-day life is able to fast-food the Holy Spirit's witness in as time permits is to lie to yourself.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Matt Black]

Clarification: my second post on this thread contains material which should be properly attributed to its author, which was posted on another board in response to my posing xdisciplex' OP question there.

My earlier post should have read like this:

Xdisciplex,

Originally posted by a chap called David Goode on another board:
a common (and sound, imho) interpretation of this verse is that having received the gift of the (Holy) Spirit by laying on of hands at our initiation (and in later periods by anointing with chrism), that same Spirit, by his very presence with our spirits, dwelling in us as his temple, bears witness to our status as having been adopted as sons and daughters of God, and co-heirs with Christ of the promise.

For more context on the idea of a double witness, see also 1 John 5.6-13

It might be worth you looking at Romans 2.15, too, for the contextual idea of the Jews of the old covenant having the Law written on their hearts and bearing witness (the Greek verb is the same as in your passage) by being their conscience.

Apologies to all for not making that clear and to David for not earlier attributing his quote.

 

[xdisciplex]

Hi everybody!
Thank you all for the great responses! I really learned something and got some insight on a few confusing questions. Romans is a difficult book.

I have a few questions about this. I always thought that because the bible says that sin has no more power over us and because we are dead to sin that once you've been water baptized you're burried with Jesus and this means you're dead to sin. Well, I have been water baptized but I did not notice any difference. I still sin and I still often feel powerless towards sin. What am I doing wrong? Or am I not doing anything wrong? But if all christians still sin and God knows this then why does the bible say such things and give you the impression that you can defeat sin? Or does this only became a reality when you totally believe it and as soon as you totally believe that sin cannot affect you anymore then you'll be free from it and not sin anymore?

And what I'd also like to know is what the bible means with "new creation"? Does this mean that if I for example have problems with anger, or if I'm for example a shy person and then I convert that from this moment on I'll be a totally different person? No more anger problems, no more being shy?

@ Matt

You said:

"It is not normally possible to know with complete certainty that we are saved."


I agree with you, but what always confuses me and concerns me are preachers which say stuff like that: "If you're saved God will make ABSOLUTELY sure that you know it because he planned it all the way."

When I hear such stuff then I think why do I not have it? What if I'm not saved...

 

[Eliyahu]

Since Holy Spirit has come into my heart, He speaks to me all the time. He convicts me if I try to commit sins, He admonishes me to do the good, to follow the way of teachings in Bible, He leads me to repent for the past sins.
He gives me the joy and peace when I follow Him.
This happens to me every day, every hour, every moment.

Before I was born again, I had no voice in me even though I was attending the church many years.

One should read 2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates ?

On this board there are many people like that, even though they know a lot about the theology. All the time whenever I debate with those people, it ends up with disagreement.

 

[BobRyan]

And what I'd also like to know is what the bible means with "new creation"? Does this mean that if I for example have problems with anger, or if I'm for example a shy person and then I convert that from this moment on I'll be a totally different person? No more anger problems, no more being shy?

2Cor 5
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

That new creation is a new nature - according to the text above "a gift" - a miracle of Christ the creator at the time you are converted to Christ.

So at that point NOT ONLY will you have your sinful nature - you will ALSO have the new nature -- the one created when you are "born again".

Warning: Those TWO nature's wont get along well!!

Rom 7

The Believer’s Sinful Nature

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

It will be a battle in which you "DIE DAILY" 1Cor 15:31

1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

In Christ,

Bob

 

[1jim]

Hi xdisciplex,


If the believer automatically and suddenly behaved as he should as a result of salvation and baptism, the writers of the New Testament epistles would not spend most of their time trying to persuade the believer to behave as he should. Obviously then, righteous behavior does not occur automatically. When the believer is not behaving as he should, does Paul say that he (the believer) should get saved or get baptized as the solution to the problem? No. He reminds the believer who he (the believer) is in Christ, and he reminds him that Christ’s Spirit is in him (the believer), and he tells him to walk by that Spirit. That’s the solution to the problem that Paul offers. Obviously then, the solution offered by Paul is a choice and a belief to which the believer must commit himself. The very fact that Paul refers to those who are less Christ-like like as carnal believers and as children in the Lord and to those who are more Christ-like as Spiritual believers and as adults in the Lord shows that walking by the indwelling Spirit of Christ is something into which the believer grows and matures; it doesn’t automatically just happen, and it doesn’t happen suddenly, but gradually. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3:18 that the believer is transformed by the indwelling Spirit of Christ into the image of Christ (Christ-likeness) from glory to glory (gradually) as he learns to see Christ in himself. Thus, it isn’t automatic and it isn’t sudden. Further, the fact that the believer is told that he will not actually reach the prize of his calling until the resurrection shows that behavioral perfection is not something that is achieved in this life. The believer does not really become Christ-like until the resurrection. Until then, the believer becomes more and more like Christ as he learns to walk by the indwelling Spirit of Christ. Where do believers get the idea that Christ-likeness is supposed to be automatic and sudden in this life? Those who think that way appear to take a verse out of context and infer from it what they choose to infer from it in complete isolation from the rest of the New Testament.


Jim

 

[steaver]

Xdisciplex,

Bob and Jim has given you solid answers to your concerns. I wonder though if you will take the time to study the scripture given and the ministry given you?

Eliyahu has given the true testimony of one who has received eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ and has received the indwellment of the Holy Spirit as a result of that true faith.

He has also given the perfect scripture for those in situations such as yourself.

I must ponder if your screen name is portraying a message to us? All knowledge begins with the indwellment of the Holy Ghost. If Jesus Christ is in you you will know it. And if you are not sure that He is in you then you must first seek Jesus and the milk of the word before the meat of the word will be of any benefit to you. Babes in Christ cannot eat meat.

First seek God for Jesus to be confirmed in you, then you can move on to understanding the more complex issues of scripture.

God Bless!

 

[1jim]

Hi xdisciplex,


The author of Hebrews 12:1-2 says that the believer is easily beset by sin, and that he (the believer) must commit himself to running the race, looking to Christ both as his example and as the source of his strength. This paints a picture that is the opposite of automatic and sudden Christ-likeness. It displays the picture of an endurance race, which, if you’ve ever run one, isn’t easy. The runner in such a race must continually recommit himself to pressing on in spite of the pain and the constant temptation to quit. What keeps him going is the prize that awaits him at the finish line. In Christianity, each person must decide for himself whether the prize is real or just false hope, just the proverbial carrot, just pie in the sky. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:19-23, if it is only in this life that we shall have hoped in Christ, if there is no real resurrection awaiting us, then we shall have been the biggest fools of all. But then Paul reaffirms that Christ did in fact rise from the dead and that a real resurrection does in fact await the believer.


Jim

 

[xdisciplex]

Hi everybody!
Thanks for your replies.

Personally I cannot say that I experience the same things which Eliyahu describes but these things are also individual you cannot make rules out of them and then say every christian has to experience exactly these things because this will drag all those christians down which do not experience these things. I don't hear a voice. I only have many thoughts and if God speaks to me or not I don't really know because if God speaks to me through my thoughts then it's impossible for me to distinguish between my thoughts,God and Satan. I can have good thoughts which still do not have to be from God.

 

[steaver]

Xdisciplex...

Personally I cannot say that I experience the same things which Eliyahu describes but these things are also individual you cannot make rules out of them and then say every christian has to experience exactly these things because this will drag all those christians down which do not experience these things. I don't hear a voice.

What Eliyahu has explained is not an audiable voice that you hear through your ears or even hear in your mind (although on occassion it can be heard in your mind as audiable, this is rare, but possible).

The Holy Spirit works through the heart, this is called conviction. It is as Eliyahu has said, re-read his post. We call it "speaking" to us, maybe that can be confusing, but it is exactly as he posted and if you do not have what he has described then you do not have the Spirit of Christ and thus cannot be saved.

All Christians will experience exactly what Eliyahu has posted. He got this from the Word of God. As was pointed out to you before, you must seek Jesus Christ to be confirmed in you, you must want Jesus Christ to be in you. You must believe in your heart. He will not impose Himself, your heart must want His presence. He sees the heart. Confession does not work unless it is spoken from the heart. There is no majic prayer to say. Thinking He is Lord does not save. Knowing He is Lord does.

From the short time spent reading your post I would say that you sound agnostic. You are not really sure there is such a thing as absolute truth or that this absolute truth is in the Christian Bible(ALL of the Bible).

It sounds to me as though you are not truly sure Jesus Christ is the Son of God. True belief is a matter of the heart, not the mind. Unless one's heart is converted and convinced that Jesus is Lord(and this something only God can do, we merely submit to Him and ask Him to do it for us), then they will not be saved. Agnostics will not be saved. It is proof that they do not have the Spirit of Christ.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

It sounds to me as though you are not truly sure Jesus Christ is the Son of God. True belief is a matter of the heart, not the mind. Unless one's heart is converted and convinced that Jesus is Lord(and this something only God can do, we merely submit to Him and ask Him to do it for us), then they will not be saved. Agnostics will not be saved. It is proof that they do not have the Spirit of Christ.

That is a good point. The Holy Spirit convicts "the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment". John 16 as the Spirit of "Truth".

If our response to him is "yet but..." once or twice or three times or... eventually we begin to push away that still small voice and to harden our own hearts against the gentle knocking of Rev 3 "Behold I stand at the door and knock IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in"

There is no good "logic" to playing games with the Holy Spirit. Better to simply accept He who IS the light of the world and who coming into the world "enlightens every man". John 1:4-8

In Christ,

Bob