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What does the apostle Paul mean here

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by grahame, Feb 11, 2008.

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  1. grahame

    grahame New Member

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    (Romans 3:7) "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"
     
    #1 grahame, Feb 11, 2008
  2. cowboymatt

    cowboymatt New Member

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    The NIV translation will help: "Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?""
     
    #2 cowboymatt, Feb 11, 2008
  3. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Look at the whole context. Paul is answering the charges (I think) of the Judiasers--those who required Christians to obey Circumcision and the OT Law.

    It is not Paul saying he was lying; it is Paul answering their charges.

    I hope that helps...I'll try to write more later--right now in the Derby City we're expecting a winter storm and I need to make some preparations.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
    #3 The Archangel, Feb 11, 2008
  4. grahame

    grahame New Member

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    Yes that is what I see as well. But I'm trying to put it in a more concise form which is easy to understand. I know that, that is what he is doing and if we read on it will be made clear if the whole verse is quoted. But I have a Muslim saying that Paul says it is ok to lie in order to spread the gospel. It looks as if he has lifted it straight out of one of those Islamic apologetics sites to me. I just want to explain it in a concise and clear form. Oh how the "unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
     
    #4 grahame, Feb 11, 2008
  5. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I would simply bring out a Bible and show him the passage and the context. It should clear it up pretty quickly.
     
    #5 annsni, Feb 11, 2008
  6. cowboymatt

    cowboymatt New Member

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    And in a modern translation too.
     
    #6 cowboymatt, Feb 11, 2008
  7. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure if he'd accept a modern translation. I'd go ahead and use the KJV. It says the same thing. :)
     
    #7 annsni, Feb 11, 2008
  8. cowboymatt

    cowboymatt New Member

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    The KJV doesn't make Paul's use of a rhetorical question clear.
     
    #8 cowboymatt, Feb 11, 2008
  9. grahame

    grahame New Member

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    That is what I did.
     
    #9 grahame, Feb 11, 2008
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I think that some religions would not accept the word of another version. I know the Jehovah's Witnesses will accept the KJV as a true Bible but they won't accept other versions (atleast those in my area are that way). So sometimes it's OK to just use the version that they prefer to show them God's truth (as long as it's not their OWN version that is not a valid version).

    But you're right, some of the other versions make it clearer and if they're OK with that, then it's fine to use another.
     
    #10 annsni, Feb 11, 2008
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    You're correct, Archangel and if I may add, this is a device seen throughout Romans.
     
    #11 TCGreek, Feb 11, 2008
  12. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    People should well other versions that add some clarity, and I see nothing wrong with that.

    Paul employs this rhetorical device throughout Romans and the NIV brings it out here.
     
    #12 TCGreek, Feb 11, 2008
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    grahame;
    Could I ask a sincere question of you. Does your islamic friend believe that all westerners are of the devil?

    BBob,
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Feb 11, 2008
  14. grahame

    grahame New Member

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    He isn't my friend by the way. I'm not sure if he believes that. But he certainly believes that all Christians have believed a pack of lies and that the Quran is the pure word of God. I find that he is extremely deceitful and uses the word of God deceitfully. On top of that when I try to explain the true meanings of certain scriptures that he has lifted right out of context, he turns on me and says that I have not read it in context. :BangHead:
    For instance he says that all missionaries use deceitful ways to convert Muslims to Christianity, ie they use wrongly translated Qurans. I told him that I find it reprehensible that Christians should twist certain verses of the Quran to try and teach Christian things. Just as I find it reprehensible for Muslims to twist Bible verses to make it look as if it teaches about Muhammed and even more deceitful for Muslims to twist Bible texts so that they teach things that they obviously do not.
    He gave an example of Paul at Athens and said that he deceitfully used their belief in many gods to teach them about Christ. Where he finds an inscription to the unknown God. I explained to him that Paul wasn't being deceitful at all, but that the true God was indeed unknown to them and it was He whom Paul preached. Then he told me that it was taken out of context and that I was being deceitful myself.
     
    #14 grahame, Feb 11, 2008
  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Sounds like you have your hands full with this guy.

    God Bless and guide you,

    BBob,
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Feb 11, 2008
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