1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

What does your bible say? Take II

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Deacon, Jan 25, 2005.

Top Posters
  1. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    9,760
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm studying about the tragic life of Michal this week and stumbled into an interesting textual problem that parallels a topic we had about Goliath a while back.

    WHAT DOES YOUR BIBLE SAY?

    The books of Samuel have quite a few textual difficulties.

    In 2 Samuel 19:8, older versions, including the KJV read:

    2 Samuel 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite: KJV

    Many modern versions differ:

    2 Samuel 21:8 So the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, Armoni and Mephibosheth whom she had borne to Saul, and the five sons of Merab the daughter of Saul, whom she had borne to Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite. NAS 95
    (bolding added)

    Now Saul had two daughters, Michal and Merab.

    Mirab was married to Adriel (1 Sam 18:19).

    Both the LXX and the MT use Michal's name.

    This one seems like a no brainer to me but when is it proper to correct the text?

    Rob
     
    #1 Deacon, Jan 25, 2005
  2. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    15
    "Merab" is correct here, and actually 2 MT MSS read that here, as well as some LXX MSS. The Syriac has "Nadab", which is a corruption of M sounding like N, and D being confused with R in Hebrew. The most interesting reading is the Aramaic, which reads, "...the five sons of Merab that Michal the daughter of Saul brought up..." either a conflation of the other two readings or the original which was borrowed from by those that read just "Merab" and those that read just "Michal". But I still think that "Merab" is correct. It is possible for almost all MT (Massoretic Text) MSS to be corrupt, and 2 Sam. 21:19 is a perfect example.

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon
     
    #2 Bluefalcon, Jan 25, 2005
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,604
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The English translation by John Nelson Darby
    has the following at 2 Samuel 21:8

    "the five sons of [the sister of] Michael"
     
    #3 Logos1560, Jan 26, 2005
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,401
    Likes Received:
    553
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just looked it up in my library. Mikol (Michal) is used in Masoretic Hebrew; not found in Dead Sea Scrolls (fragment ends at v 6 and doesn't start again until v 15); in LXX.

    Interesting note: In my Douay Catholic Bible it says Michol, but with an asterisk. It adds that these were actually the children of Merob, but that Michol raised them as her own. She was a type of the Blessed Virgin, ever chaste yet raising the children of Joseph.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
    #4 Dr. Bob, Jan 26, 2005
  5. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,396
    Likes Received:
    672
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I wonder about the "chaste" part, Dr. Bob. I believe the DR blew it. Michal was David's wife for awhile with no probs between them until she mocked David for his "dirty dancing" as the ark was being returned. It was after she mocked david for his exhibition that he declared her childless, meaning he wasn't gonna "know" her any more. But I'm sure they had consummated their marriage, as they had been husband & wife for awhile.
     
    #5 robycop3, Jan 26, 2005
  6. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    9,760
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Michal as a type of Mary would be strange indeed.

    She had been married to two men, David and Paltiel.

    After David's becoming king, he re-claimed his first wife, Saul's daughter Michal, much to the dismay of the second husband.

    No word of what Michal felt about leaving her second husband, but this was just prior to the incident of her denigrating David for his immodest display of worship.

    Rob
     
    #6 Deacon, Jan 26, 2005
  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,396
    Likes Received:
    672
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanx, Deacon; I'd forgotten about Palti. I'm sure they hadn't been celibate during their marriage.

    The RCCs are always looking for a "type" of virgin to compare to Mary. They totally ignore the mentions of Jesus' brothers and sisters in Scripture.
     
    #7 robycop3, Jan 26, 2005
  8. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    9,760
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You can see the problem that the translators had in the past. It was a real dilemma; either correct the text by changing the name from Michal to Merab or change the meaning of "borne".

    They chose to change the meaning of the Hebrew word yalad which normally means to bear, beget, bring forth, gender, travail and substituted a meaning that allowed them to keep the original word, the substituted meaning was to raise, or bring up. Nowhere else is it tanslated that way. it's a corrupt meaning.

    ...and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite: KJV

    The availability of additional texts have given us a wider range of possible solutions to the problem.

    Rob
     
    #8 Deacon, Jan 26, 2005
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is very reminiscent of some of the explanations used by the KVJOs in other areas. Some people will say anything ...
     
    #9 Pastor Larry, Jan 26, 2005
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,537
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Latin Vulgate:
    2 Samuel 21:8 tulit itaque rex duos filios Respha filiae Ahia quos peperit Saul Armoni et Mifiboseth et quinque filios Michol filiae Saul quos genuerat Hadriheli filio Berzellai qui fuit de Molathi

    Which BTW corrects the Hebrew (although my MT does in fact say Michol).

    HankD
     
    #10 HankD, Jan 26, 2005
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...