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What every anti-calvinist needs to know

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
I found this list from another site and thought it was worth repeating here.

1) Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism are poles apart. The terms are not to be used synonymously. A Hyper Calvinist is not just a zealous Calvinist. We both consider each other to be "mongrel" Calvinists. No man will call himself a Hyper Calvinist.

2) Yes Calvinists are split into several factions. But then so are many such doctrinal schools e.g. Dispensationalism, Church Government, Worship…do we sing only the Psalms or use hymns? Which hymns? Do we use music? Which music? Which set of texts do we base our Bible translation on? Is it the Textus Receptus that is important or the (KJV) AV? or both? etc.,

3) The term free will needs to be defined to avoid confusion. Calvinists will either affirm it or deny it, depending on what they think you mean…This sometimes leads to charges of contradictions. Consult the standard Calvinist Confessions e.g. the Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 9 for a defining of terms.

4) The term free agency is not automatically the same as free will when used by a Calvinist. It is the Calvinist's preferred term to free will. Preferred so as to avoid the confusion spoken of in the above point.

5) Calvinists do believe in man's responsibility, but deny his ability to repent and believe the gospel. The two terms are not synonymous. Calvinists believe that man's inability to repent and believe are caused by his own sin ... not any positive imposition on God's part.

6) Calvinists do not believe that men are puppets or blocks of wood or robots, but responsible beings and are treated as such by God, even when fallen.

7) Calvinists are not fatalists. Calvinists believe that God has ordained the end and also the means to that end. Therefore they do believe in evangelism as the means God uses to fulfil His intention of saving the elect. It is not true to say that Calvinists believe that God saves men without the gospel. Calvinists do believe in prayer.

8) Calvinists do believe that it is the duty of men to repent and believe the gospel. This is one of our quarrels with the Hyper Calvinists.

9) Calvinists do believe that the gospel is (to quote Calvin) to be preached indiscriminately to the elect and to the reprobate (Commentary on Isaiah 54:13) This is another one of our quarrels with the Hyper Calvinists.

10) Calvinists do not limit the value or merit or worth of the blood of Christ. They do limit the intention of the blood to save any other than the elect. We are happy enough (as was John Calvin) with the statement that the blood of Christ is sufficient for the whole world but efficient only for the elect.

11) Calvinists do not believe that men are damned without any reference to their sin. God passing by and leaving certain men in their sin is not the same as God damning men by the sheer force of His decree.

12) Calvinists do not just preach on the Five Points and nothing else. At least no more so than Dispensationalists who just preach on prophecy or Pentecostals who just preach on the gifts of the Spirit etc.,

13) Calvinists do not read the Five Points into every text of scripture. Many of the major Bible commentaries, beloved and valued by all Christians e.g. Matthew Henry were written by Calvinists.

14) Calvinists do believe that men can resist the Holy Spirit. They believe that even the elect can resist the Holy Spirit, and do…but only up to the time when the Spirit regenerates their heart so that resist Him no more. The non elect effectively resist Him all their lives.

15) Calvinists do not believe that men are brought kicking and screaming irresistibly to Christ. We believe in irresistible grace. The will is not passed by in salvation. No man ever came to Christ unwillingly, or regretted that he had been brought.

16) Calvinist's do not believe that there are souls out there who want to be saved, but can't be saved because they are not of the elect.

17) Calvinists, being without access to the Lamb's Book of Life, see every man as potentially elect and preach the gospel to him.

18) Calvinists do believe in unconditional election but they do not believe in unconditional salvation. Except a man be born again, he will not enter the kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3) Except he repent, he will perish (Luke 13:3) Except he be converted etc., …all these are conditions of salvation.

19) Calvinists do believe that regeneration precedes faith in Christ. We do not confuse the term regeneration with that of justification or salvation. The Spirit of God regenerates the elect sinner enabling him to forsake the deadness of his sin and willingly embrace Christ and so be justified by faith and saved for eternity. Regeneration therefore is not synonymous with justification or salvation any more than conviction of sin is synonymous with conversion to Christ.

20) Perseverance of the saints does not mean that Calvinists believe that they must hang on for dear life without any reference to the keeping power of God. It simply means that we believe that the Christian will prove to be an overcomer in accordance with 1 John 5:4-5 etc.,

21) Some Calvinists use the phrase Particular Redemption as opposed to Limited Atonement because they can see how the General Redemptionist position may also be said to limit the atonement, although in a different way i.e. it does not set out to do all what was intended.

22) Calvinists do not believe that John Calvin is infallible…no more than Methodists believe that John Wesley is infallible or Dispensationalists allowing Schofield or John Darby the final word.

23) While Calvinists believe that saving grace and repentance are the gifts of God, given only to His elect, they do not believe that God exercises faith for them or repents for them. The elect sinner, enabled by the power of God, actually repents and believes for himself.

24) While there can be no real middle ground between the Calvinist position and that of the non Calvinist…yet most Calvinists believe that both sides really do preach the gospel. Despite our differences as to many of the details, a man who preaches that Christ died for the ungodly and that the work was sufficient to save the whosoever who will repent and believe is really preaching the gospel. We rejoice in the gospel preaching of John Wesley just as much as that of George Whitefield, although (naturally) we would hold Whitefield to be the better theologian.

25) There is a difference between a paradox and a contradiction. We know that God is sovereign, yet man is free to follow the dictates of his own will. Where the two lines meet is not for us to say. Calvinist ignorance on the matter is to be excused on the basis of Deuteronomy 29:29

26) Although Calvinists believe that even sinful acts are ordained by God (Ephesians 1:11/Proverbs 16:4) yet such makes the event certain…but not necessary. This clears God from being the author of sin. This view best explains the Cross (Acts 2:23/4:27-28/Luke 22:22) This is explained further elsewhere on this site.
This is from: CALVINISTIC INDEX PAGE

This site also has a page on "Criticising Calvinism" that is worth reading.

Let's renew a concerted effort to understand where the other side is coming from rather than continually making a bunch of false representations. As this site says, if you are writing against Calvinism make sure that the Calvinist can recognize himself in what you write.

This gentleman says:
My position on the Calvinistic controversy is akin to that of Spurgeon. The good man was certainly a staunch defender of these doctrines - he said that he felt ready to die for their defence (MTP 9:274) - yet he could see those truths which emanated from the other side. He was not advocating the idea of diluting any of the five points - an unwarranted compromise - but he could write:

"The Calvinist has said, and said right bravely, that salvation is of grace alone; and the Arminian has said, and said most truthfully, that damnation is of man’s will alone, and as the result of man’s sin, and of that only. Then they have fallen out with one another. The fact is, they had each one laid hold of a truth, and if they could have put their heads together, and accepted both truths, it might have been greatly for the advantage of the Church of Christ. These two doctrines are like tram lines that you can travel on with safety and comfort, these parallel lines-ruin, of man; restoration, of God: sin, of man’s will; salvation, of God’s will: reprobation, of man’s demerit; election, of God’s free and sovereign grace: the sinner lost in hell through himself alone, the saint lifted up to heaven wholly and alone by the power and grace of God. Get those two truths thoroughly engraven upon your heart, and you will then hold comprehensively the great truths of Scripture. You will not need to crowd them into one narrow system of theology, but you will have a sort of duplicate system" (MTP 41:500)

He also said:

"But I do maintain there should be, and there must be if our churches are to be healthy and sound, a constant adherence to the fundamental doctrines of divine truth. I should be prepared to go a very long way for charity’s sake, and admit that very much of the discussion which has existed even between Arminians and Calvinists has not been a discussion about vital truth, but about the terms in which that vital truth shall be stated." (MTP 6:395)

I honestly believe that much of the trouble comes from ignorance and misunderstanding. If I thought that someone believed that God just damned men for the sheer pleasure of it, without any reference to their sins etc., then I would get pretty uptight as well. But before I wrote anything, I would seek to find out as much as I could, ever remembering the words of Oliver Cromwell in his letter to the Presbyterians of Scotland: "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."
 
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Yelsew

Guest
5) Calvinists do believe in man's responsibility, but deny his ability to repent and believe the gospel. The two terms are not synonymous. Calvinists believe that man's inability to repent and believe are caused by his own sin ... not any positive imposition on God's part.
Then Calvinists do not have the mind of Christ who tells men to repent and believe, knowing they have the ability. Who is in contrast to God?
8) Calvinists do believe that it is the duty of men to repent and believe the gospel. This is one of our quarrels with the Hyper Calvinists.
if the duty, then how is that duty carried out without the ability (see 5 above)
 
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Yelsew

Guest
10) Calvinists do not limit the value or merit or worth of the blood of Christ. They do limit the intention of the blood to save any other than the elect. We are happy enough (as was John Calvin) with the statement that the blood of Christ is sufficient for the whole world but efficient only for the elect.
A complete denial of Jesus atonement of the sins of the world!
 
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Yelsew

Guest
11) Calvinists do not believe that men are damned without any reference to their sin. God passing by and leaving certain men in their sin is not the same as God damning men by the sheer force of His decree.
A complete missapplication of the Atonement. The atonement pays the price for mans sin, thus removing sin from the final judgment. That judgment whether one is saved from the lake of fire or cast into the lake of fire is based solely upon ones belief or lack thereof in the Son of God, the Christ.
 
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Yelsew

Guest
Originally posted by KenH:
Hey Yelsew, do you believe we Calvinists are saved?
If you have faith in Jesus, even on his name, you are saved! Now you make the decision are you saved?
 

William C

New Member
Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 5) Calvinists do believe in man's responsibility, but deny his ability to repent and believe the gospel. The two terms are not synonymous. Calvinists believe that man's inability to repent and believe are caused by his own sin ... not any positive imposition on God's part.
Then Calvinists do not have the mind of Christ who tells men to repent and believe, knowing they have the ability. Who is in contrast to God?
8) Calvinists do believe that it is the duty of men to repent and believe the gospel. This is one of our quarrels with the Hyper Calvinists.
if the duty, then how is that duty carried out without the ability (see 5 above)
</font>[/QUOTE]You nailed the major objection to Calvinism. They now will turn to Romans 9 and begin to use Paul's diatribe objection to hardening as a defense of our objection to Total depravity as if they are one in the same. This is the root of their error.
 

William C

New Member
16) Calvinist's do not believe that there are souls out there who want to be saved, but can't be saved because they are not of the elect.
Why then do Calvinist quote Romans 9:16 in reference to salvation saying, "It doesn't depend upon man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy," as if man might desire to be saved but could not unless God had mercy.

The truth is this verse is about man's desire and effort to be saved through works of the law instead of upon God's grace which is applied through faith.

The truth is everyone wants to be saved! Who wants to go to hell? Many people seek to be saved, the problem is where they are seeking. Many, especially in those days, sought to be saved through the law. Others seek salvation through other gods. But its not dependant upon that desire, its dependant upon the grace of God, who calls all to salvation through faith in his son.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
They now will turn to Romans 9
Nope. The best explanation of the doctrine of man's inability are the words spoken by Jesus in John 6:43 and John 6:65.

I guess you keep wanting to jump to Romans 9 since you don't want to say that Jesus was in error since what He taught in John chapter 6 is not what you teach.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
The truth is everyone wants to be saved! Who wants to go to hell?
So you don't think there is any such thing as a true atheist? Interesting.
 
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Yelsew

Guest
14) Calvinists do believe that men can resist the Holy Spirit. They believe that even the elect can resist the Holy Spirit, and do…but only up to the time when the Spirit regenerates their heart so that resist Him no more. The non elect effectively resist Him all their lives.
How does a Calvinist know that he is resisting the Holy Spirit? Has he been presented the Word that the Holy Spirit has brought through some preacher or the written word and upon recognizing it for what it is, not "hearing" it? Is he receiving but rejecting? If yes, then he is not regenerated, and the Holy Spiri has failed to prepare the ground to receive the seed. There goes your regeneration first theory!

15) Calvinists do not believe that men are brought kicking and screaming irresistibly to Christ. We believe in irresistible grace. The will is not passed by in salvation. No man ever came to Christ unwillingly, or regretted that he had been brought.
Let's see, the Methodists call this Prevenient Grace. The Bible calls it God's Grace for truly that attribute of God prevents Him from carrying out his justice upon sinful man.

God's Grace is the same for all mankind, for all mankind are spared the penalty of death for the number of 120 years, by God, for that is the time God alloted for man to live. 120 years of Grace for each man so that each man can hear the word of God, and believe on His only Begotten Son and thereby have eternal life. Then it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment.

That seems fair to me, but to call God's grace irresistable is a poor understanding of God and His eternal attributes. Many men have successfully resisted God for their whole natural life only to find, after they left this natural life, that they were wrong!

If God's grace were truly irristable, every individual that ever lived, is living or will live is saved, because God's Grace covers them all! You see, it is not Grace that saves! It is Grace that gives each individual the opportunity to be saved. The Beloved Peter says this,
2 Pet 3:15. Think of our Lord's patience as your opportunity to be saved; our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that he was given.
16. He makes this point too in his letters as a whole wherever he touches on these things. In all his letters there are of course some passages which are hard to understand, and these are the ones that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture, to their own destruction.
17. Since you have been forewarned about this, my dear friends, be careful that you do not come to the point of losing the firm ground that you are standing on, carried away by the errors of unprincipled people.
18. Instead, continue to grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory, in time and eternity. Amen.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
laugh.gif


The reason I ask is I only have the NIV with me and it says nothing about "opportunity". It says "our Lord's patience means salvation".

So I was just wondering what version Yelsew was quoting from.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Yelsew,

Thanks for demosntrating yet again that you are not listening, and that you do not understand. Your objections are met with our understanding of Scripture. I wish you would just listen sometimes. Just put a sock in your cyber mouth and listen to what others are saying. You too Bill. Both of you raise up an objection that has been explained so many times it is nauseating but you plow right on like Scripture doesn't say what it says.

It is really disappointing. :( :( :(
 
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Yelsew

Guest
19) Calvinists do believe that regeneration precedes faith in Christ. We do not confuse the term regeneration with that of justification or salvation. The Spirit of God regenerates the elect sinner enabling him to forsake the deadness of his sin and willingly embrace Christ and so be justified by faith and saved for eternity. Regeneration therefore is not synonymous with justification or salvation any more than conviction of sin is synonymous with conversion to Christ.
Regeneration precedes faith in Christ. That means that only those whom God elects to regenerate can have faith. Yet it is God stated desire that none should perish, which means that God leaves election up to the individual. God is not carrying an overflowing basket of only those he elects and juggling to catch those that fall out of the basket. That is pure silliness.

God created all that is. That means that God is fully aware of the whole of his creation. He made man as the last of his creation work, and did a supreme job of it. He called it good! Man was so good, being in God's own image, that man had the abilities and the capacities for abilities that God Himself has. What God did not instill in man is the knowledge of good and evil, and eternal life, hence the trees in the center of the garden in which God placed man. So pure was man that God gave him only one command with a warning. Do not eat of the tree in the center of the Garden lest ye surely die. Then God who created the beguiling serpent allowed the serpent into the garden too! So we have pure man and woman in the Garden with the beguiling serpent who speaks the language. Sooner or later they come together and that beautiful serpent sweet talks the helpmeet for man and beguiles her into doubting the truth of God's command regarding the tree in the center of the garden. She picks and eats the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and behold she continues to live! Viola! So she hands the fruit to the Man who seeing that she ate and lives, decides to eat too! And behold he continues to live! Viola! But then, they heard the voice of God and were sorely afraid and hid themselves for they saw that they were naked! Well God curses the serpent, Curses the woman, Curses the man, expells them from the garden and posts a sentry of flaming swords at the entrance to the garden so man cannot reenter.

Wait a minute! There's supposed to be something here about how God altered his creation so that his created man no longer has the image and abilities God created him to have. Where is that found? Oh God, it's not there! Along comes John Calvin who says oh yes it is. Man is so totally depraved because of sin that he no longer has that image of God, and no longer can even hear the word of God and repent or confess, or even know God, unless God himself comes to him and remakes him.

I'm sorry guys, but my bible does not have John Calvin's story in it! My bible says that NOTHING changed in man to make man different than God created him to be. Man is still in the image of God. Still has the attributes God put in him in the creation, still has a free will with which to behave in accordance with. Still has a brain, Still has a mind, Still has a spirit, and still has ears with which to hear. The difference is that man's ears get clogged up with sin so that man does not listen to God even though he has the ability.

God sees man as the ground, some of it hard and un-arable, some rocky and shallow, some overrun by weeds and tares, and some arable to varying degrees. So he keeps scattering the seed of his Holy Word, letting it fall on all the types of ground. You see, God knows, because he created it, that even hard ground can be made arable by his tending to it, enriching it, plowing it, shaping it, watering it. He knows that eventually that ground will take the seed and produce a crop. He is after all God!

As for justification? Jesus' selfless sacrifice on the cross, and the shedding of his blood, JUSTIFIES US! We have nothing to do with our justification. His atonement for our sins and indeed the sins of the whole world is sufficient to justify us all before the thone of God.

As for Salvation? God did all the work for our salvation, and Jesus finished it in the atonement for sin. Therefore we can do absolutely nothing to save ourselves, the work is already done for us. But like any gift given it must be received and accepted. Thank you Father for your gift of life eternal which I willingly and freely accept through my faith in your beloved Son Jesus.

As for Sanctification? Because, I willingly and freely accept the gift of eternaly life through faith in Jesus, the Christ, I am now Sanctified before the Throne of God. I will not face the second death of being cast into the lake of fire. My belief in Jesus Sanctifies me.

I was nothing, I did nothing, I earned nothing, but I do believe in Jesus, the Son of God, The Christ. Therefore I am a Child of God, An adopted brother of Jesus Christ, an eternal being, destined to live with Jesus forever. All the Glory is God's and God's alone!
 
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Yelsew

Guest
Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
2 Pet 3:15. Think of our Lord's patience as your opportunity to be saved
What version are you quoting from, Yelsew? </font>[/QUOTE]The New Jerusalem Bible, readers edition.

This version makes the most sense in light of God's attributes of Grace and Mercy. He delays his coming so that more can believe and Peter being the Patriarch of the Jerusalem church seems well versed in the matter of faith and how it is derived.
 
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Yelsew

Guest
Edited for obvious reasons. :( :( Don't push your luck Yelsew.

[ May 08, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
 
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Yelsew

Guest
If there are questions about the moderating, you may address them to the moderators via PM. Public discussions of the moderating are prohibited.

[ May 08, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Yelsew:
The New Jerusalem Bible, readers edition.

This version makes the most sense in light of God's attributes of Grace and Mercy.
2 Peter 3:15(KJV)
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

2 Peter 3:15(NASB)
and regard the patience R163 of our Lord as salvation;

2 Peter 3:15(NCV)
Remember that we are saved because our Lord is patient.

2 Peter 3:15(NKJV)
and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation

2 Peter 3:15(NRSV)
and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation.

I don't know anything about The New Jerusalem Bible as to its reliability or whether it is a translation or a paraphrase, but at least on this verse it appears off the mark. The people that put the NJB must have added the word "opportunity" to reflect a theological bias. That is unfortunate.

It is apparently a Roman Catholic Bible and I found out the following about it from www.kenanderson.net/bible/new_jerusalem.html:

"The New Jerusalem Bible is less dynamic than its predecessor, but it still tends to consider an allegiance to the modern expression of English as more important than an accurate translation of the ancient text. While less so than the JB, the NJB still shows a tendency to interpret rather than to translate. When a more literal translation of the text fails to read smoothly in English, the NJB opts to rearrange the text and to clarify it, in some cases changing and narrowing the meaning."

I would kindly suggest, Yelsew, that you use a reliable translation instead of a paraphrase to read the Holy Bible.
 
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