What exactly is Pagan about the RCC/Eastern Orthodox

[mojoala]

Please provide me with anything that you consider to all of the paganizm of the RCC. I want to research these issues.

Thanks in Advance.

 

[El_Guero]

They have too much in common with the Orthodox?

Please provide me with anything that you consider to all of the paganizm of the RCC. I want to research these issues.

Thanks in Advance.

 

[mojoala]

Okay, then just give a list of RCC pagan activities. I don't care either way.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

Please understand that I always want to be gentle and to speak the truth in love ... but it has to be the truth. I have many Catholic friends, including a daughter-in-law. BUT ... since you asked ... one of the greatest issues, that looks an awful lot like paganism to me, is the veneration of the "saints". The notion that there is a class of people who are elevated into a special relationship with God and who are capable of interceding for the rest of us and of performing miracles is so problematic. Can you see how close that looks to the polytheism of the ancient world or the animism of unsophisticated peoples around the world?

 

[Tom Bryant]

I agree about the veneration of the saints as being one way that RCC is close to being pagan. But you don't see it as much in the US of A. The Catholic church in America is tempered to a great extent by the "competition" with Protestant churches.

Where you will really see the paganism of RCC is in countries where Catholicism is the dominant religion like in South American countries. For example in Guatemala, many Catholic churches have simply added the mayan religion to their ceremonies. In some African countries, they have added other pagan religions.

 

[BobRyan]

Please provide me with anything that you consider to all of the paganizm of the RCC. I want to research these issues.

Thanks in Advance.

#1. Prayers to the dead
#2. Inventing purgatory
#3. Idolatry in the form of the bread
#4. Image worship
#5. Priests with "magic powers" that remain after being excommunicated
#6. Priests with magic powers to "mark the soul" of an infant - (so no faith involved).
#7. Claiming that they are "really drinking blood" not just symbolically referencing the PAST death of Christ "in memorial".
#8. Burning the Bible
#9. Opposing a sola scriptura "rule" for judging doctrine faith and practice and choosing instead "the traditions of man" Mark 7:8-12
#10 Calling for the "extermination" of all Christians that opposed her and all Jews that opposed her during the dark ages.
#11 Setting up "torments and tortures" to try and get dissenting Christians to "recant" instead of pointing out the RC errors

I am sure I am missing something in this list - but I think you get the general idea.

 

[Melanie]

My understanding of paganism is that the person tends to believe in many gods, or nature worship, animals, idols etc.

I (as a RC) believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ His only Son Our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;He ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost; the Holy Catholic Church; the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

The above pretty well sums up the RCC, I guess.

 

[mojoala]

#1. Prayers to the dead
#2. Inventing purgatory
#3. Idolatry in the form of the bread
#4. Image worship
#5. Priests with "magic powers" that remain after being excommunicated
#6. Priests with magic powers to "mark the soul" of an infant - (so no faith involved).
#7. Claiming that they are "really drinking blood" not just symbolically referencing the PAST death of Christ "in memorial".
#8. Burning the Bible
#9. Opposing a sola scriptura "rule" for judging doctrine faith and practice and choosing instead "the traditions of man" Mark 7:8-12
#10 Calling for the "extermination" of all Christians that opposed her and all Jews that opposed her during the dark ages.
#11 Setting up "torments and tortures" to try and get dissenting Christians to "recant" instead of pointing out the RC errors

I am sure I am missing something in this list - but I think you get the general idea.

I asked what was pagan. Numbers 8 thru 11 are not pagan issues I believe. So please stick to the issue at hand.

 

[JamieinNH]

I asked what was pagan. Numbers 8 thru 11 are not pagan issues I believe. So please stick to the issue at hand.

But what about 1-7? Also, I would think number 8 would be high on some pagans list....


Jamie

 

[mojoala]

I just asked what is considered pagan. I did not say I would respond to them. I am asking for future research.

As for number 8, that will be covered in a new thread. I am particularly interested in that one.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I asked what was pagan. Numbers 8 thru 11 are not pagan issues I believe. So please stick to the issue at hand.

I would argue that 1 through 7 are not specifically pagan at all, but grow from specifically Christian sources.

#1. Prayers to the dead
#2. Inventing purgatory

Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglicans developed their Scriptures using the Hebrew Bible as translated into Greek, the Septuagint. Thus the books we call "Apocryphal" are regarded as authoritative in these chuches, and are the source for #1 and #2. Nothing pagan about it.

#3. Idolatry in the form of the bread
#4. Image worship
#5. Priests with "magic powers" that remain after being excommunicated
#6. Priests with magic powers to "mark the soul" of an infant - (so no faith involved).
#7. Claiming that they are "really drinking blood" not just symbolically referencing the PAST death of Christ "in memorial".

I object on prinicple to the "magic powers" crack, and would argue that the image is not regarded as the object of worship, but as a reminder. Those in ordinal churches and, to much more pointed degree, those in Reformed churches, would regard the elements of the Lord's Supper as a similar reminder.

Further, if one's theology believes a literal interpretation of Jesus' words: "This is My body... this is My blood..." then #3 and #7 aren't idolatry, but a rational outgrowth of that belief.

Finally, in re #7if one takes literally the Scripture which tells us that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, then #5 and #6 are quite an accurate interpretation. Finally, if one regards baptism as the sign of a new life in Christ, and a seal of covenant into the Body of Christ, then the faith involved is within the lives of those presenting the child for baptism, and again the "magic powers" crack is nonsensical.

 

[BobRyan]

Kinda fun to watch RC posters ASK non-RC's for a list of things taught by the RCC that make them appear to be using/adopting paganism.

Then when we give them - watch the RC posters say "Well that does not make me think of paganism when I see the RCC teaching the things in that list".

Why in the world WOULD you be thinking your own church is emmersed in pagan doctrines-- why would you STILL be in it if you did?

 

[BobRyan]

I asked what was pagan. Numbers 8 thru 11 are not pagan issues I believe. So please stick to the issue at hand.

While you may not "think" that torturing Christians and burning their Bibles is something that pagans would dare to suggest -- I do.

As for the fact that pagans (and cults in general) are KNOWN for rejecting a sola-scriptura bible basis for their doctrines and prefer instead to adhere to "man made traditions" -- again I think you are not letting yourself see the big picture... THEY ALL do that!

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
#5. Priests with "magic powers" that remain after being excommunicated
#6. Priests with magic powers to "mark the soul" of an infant - (so no faith involved).

TP
I object on prinicple to the "magic powers" crack

"Magic power" as in something that the priest HAS and RETAINS even if the church rejects that priest and declares him to be unsaved - excommunicated etc.

No way around that one.

"Magic Powers" as in the division between the "Sacred Clergy" and the "profane laity" such that the Clergy can say magic words over an infant and "MARK THE SOUL" but the profane laity saying those same words - have not effect at all on the soul.

The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic work "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

Ibid -Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century

"the clergy at first were not sharply differentiated from the laity..the clergy married, raised families, and earned their livelihood at some trade or profession. But as the practice grew of paying them..they withdrew more and more from secular pursuits, until by the fourth century such withdrawal was deemed obligatory"

"at first the Christian presbyter or elder (as they were really known) avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priests and, in fact even deliberately refused to be called a priest. He (the real Christian leader) saw his primary function as the ministry of the word. ..but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character."

"[b]the more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantinian era, with its features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister[/b] as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule rather than the exception, for infants could not be preached to. "

"before Constantine the whole church was considered the realm of the sacred (priesthood of all) as opposed to the profane world. After Constantine and the breakdown of the separation between the church and the world, the polarity between the sacred and profane was transformed into one between the sacred clergy and the profane laity"

"legislation to this effect was first passed at the local synod of Elvira, Spain and taken up by the popes beginning with Siricius (d. 399), who enforced clerical celebacy (which was adopted mainly on the grounds that sex was incompatible with the sacred character of the clergy)"

So there we have it on two short pages (49-50) of that telling work done by a Catholic historian - revealing the ongoing evolutionary process in the church that brings us to where we are today.

Ibid - Page 42
"the liturgy itself was considerably influenced by the Constantinian revolution. Millions of pagans suddenly entered the church
and some of their customs inevitably crept into the liturgy; the use of the kiss as a sign of reverence for holy objects, the practice of genuflection,
devotion to relics, use of candles, incense and other ceremonial features derived from the imperial court. Under this pagan influence Christians
began to face the east while praying which made it necessary for the priest to lead prayers while his back was toward the congregation."
…
pg 43
for a long time the celebrant was left considerable freedom to improvise in conducting the liturgy. Even wording of the canon was left to his
discretion.

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic work "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

Ibid -Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century

"the clergy at first were not sharply differentiated from the laity..the clergy married, raised families, and earned their livelihood at some trade or profession. But as the practice grew of paying them..they withdrew more and more from secular pursuits, until by the fourth century such withdrawal was deemed obligatory"

"at first the Christian presbyter or elder (as they were really known) avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priests and, in fact even deliberately refused to be called a priest. He (the real Christian leader) saw his primary function as the ministry of the word. ..but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character."

"[b]the more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantinian era, with its features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister[/b] as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule rather than the exception, for infants could not be preached to. "

"before Constantine the whole church was considered the realm of the sacred (priesthood of all) as opposed to the profane world. After Constantine and the breakdown of the separation between the church and the world, the polarity between the sacred and profane was transformed into one between the sacred clergy and the profane laity"

"legislation to this effect was first passed at the local synod of Elvira, Spain and taken up by the popes beginning with Siricius (d. 399), who enforced clerical celebacy (which was adopted mainly on the grounds that sex was incompatible with the sacred character of the clergy)"

 

[mojoala]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I wonder if Bob Ryan buys his wife Flowers and Candies on Valentines Day? Is that not a pagan holiday as well?

Does or Did Bob Ryan's children and/or grandchildren participate in the pagan Easter festivities of Easter Egg hunts.

Does Bob Ryan put up a christmas tree during Christmas? or for that matter all of the Christmas Pagan stuff that has crept in.

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).

Does Bob Ryan foster the belief in Santa Claus to the young?

Does Bob Ryan celebrate the Birth of Jesus in December or does it celebrate at it's rightful time of Late Spring or Early Summer?

Even the date of Christmas, December 25, was borrowed from another religion. At the time Christmas was created in AD 320, Mithraism was very popular. The early Christian church had gotten tired of their futile efforts to stop people celebrating the solstice and the birthday of Mithras, the Persian sun god. Mithras’ birthday was December 25. So the pope at the time decided to make Jesus’ official birthday coincide with Mithras’ birthday. No one knows what time of year Jesus was actually born but there is evidence to suggest that it was in midsummer.

Does Bob Ryan wear a wedding band on his left hand? The wedding band is pagan. Consider this:

Wedding Rings: Very simply, support for the wedding ring cannot be found anywhere in Scripture. The Bible doesn't say that some rings can be worn and others shouldn't. It simply includes rings in a long list of jewelry and ornamental clothing of which God disapproves. ( Isaiah 3:21 And rings, and jewels hanging on the forehead,) The wearing of wedding rings is strictly a tradition that springs from paganism and has since been embraced and "baptized" by many churches. The ring dates back to the Egyptian circle symbolizing never ending life.

Does Bob Ryan exchange presents during Christmas?

The practice of exchanging gifts at a winter celebration is also pre-Christian and is from the Roman Saturnalia. They would exchange good-luck gifts called Stenae (lucky fruits). They also would have a big feast just like we do today.

Does Bob Ryan celebrate New Years Eve and Day?

The celebration of the new year is the oldest of all holidays. It was first observed in ancient Babylon about 4000 years ago. In the years around 2000 BC, the Babylonian New Year began with the first New Moon (actually the first visible cresent) after the Vernal Equinox (first day of spring).

The beginning of spring is a logical time to start a new year. After all, it is the season of rebirth, of planting new crops, and of blossoming. January 1, on the other hand, has no astronomical nor agricultural significance. It is purely arbitrary.

The Babylonian new year celebration lasted for eleven days. Each day had its own particular mode of celebration, but it is safe to say that modern New Year's Eve festivities pale in comparison.

Do I need to go further? This seems more like a case of the Pot calling the Kettle BLACK!

 

[bound]

Grace and Peace Everyone,

The elevation of Mary appears to be an innovation which developed as Christianity made it's way into the Pagan Society of Rome (East and West) particularly appealing to the followers of the Cult of Isis and those who admired their practices of viginity. Studying history reveals a lot of Pagan Culture which is frankly admirable but I question the merit of bringing it's worldly practices into our faith practice.

The popularity of statues, crucifixes, Iconography, etc also appears to be an innovation which developed as Christianity made it's way into the Pagan Society of Rome. Although I believe a lot of religious art to be inspiring and frankly beautiful I do recognize it to be problematic when reflecting on our Commandments.

Being that we, as Baptists, recognize all men as equals under the eyes of our Lord I see no reason to elevate local heros to the status of holy-than-thou members of the Kingdom of Heaven. This to me smacks of hero worship and frankly I do believe it was way out of hand in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. It's an easy means to reintroduce polytheistic elements into the monotheistic religion of Christianity. Remember we have 'one' mediator not two or three or twelve. This is a 'major' criticism Baptists have against Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Regardless I hope we can have a fruitful dialogue.

God Bless.

 

[Jack Matthews]

The term "pagan" implies "not being Christian." The test of whether something is Christian or not is whether or not it accepts Jesus as the Christ, the son of the living God who was crucified as a sacrifice for our sins and raised from the dead on the third day victorious over sin and death. If someone believes and accepts that, they are not pagan, regardless of what traditions or practices have been added to the practice of their religion.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Bob Ryan, I am not Catholic, I'm Presbyterian.

I expected jsut that kind of response from you: one that ignores historical fact and context, and the body of my post in general.

Have a nice day.

 

[mojoala]

monotheistic?

We are not this!

We worship a Trinity.

Mormons are monotheistic!