What exactly is Pagan about the RCC/Eastern Orthodox

[tragic_pizza]

monotheistic?

We are not this!

We worship a Trinity.

Mormons are monotheistic!

What??????????

We worship three gods?

No.

One God. The works of the trinitaian God are individible.

 

[mojoala]

What??????????

We worship three gods?

No.

One God. The works of the trinitaian God are individible.

Do you worship God?

Do you worship Jesus?

at least you're worshipping two distinct person of the Trinity.

Worshipping the Holy Spirit may be a gray area....

 

[bound]

monotheistic?

We are not this!

We worship a Trinity.

Mormons are monotheistic!

Grace and Peace mojoala,

mono (one) theo (God)

I cannot speak for you or anyone else but Baptists worship 'One God' (i.e. thus we are monotheists).

Mormons are polytheists. They believe that God the Father is just one of many Gods who rule over multiple realities Jesus being just one. Thus Mormons cannot be characterized as sharing in a monotheistic theology.

The Trinity is not Tri (three) theo (Gods) but a philosophical articulation of three Personas in one Godhead (i.e. Father, Son and Holy Ghost).

Long story short, we continue to profess One God, monotheism.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[mojoala]

Grace and Peace mojoala,

mono (one) theo (God)

I cannot speak for you or anyone else but Baptists worship 'One God' (i.e. thus we are monotheists).

Mormons are polytheists. They believe that God the Father is just one of many Gods who rule over multiple realities Jesus being just one. Thus Mormons cannot be characterized as sharing in a monotheistic theology.

The Trinity is not Tri (three) theo (Gods) but a philosophical articulation of three Personas in one Godhead (i.e. Father, Son and Holy Ghost).

Long story short, we continue to profess One God, monotheism.

Peace and God Bless.

Yea I forgot that aspect of Mormonism.

Do you worship Jesus?

or

Do you worship God?

or

Both?

You believe in a GodHead. You can do all types of linguistics on it, but the issue still is you can pray to at least 2 individual members of the trinity. You can beseech Christ or you can beseech God.

I got a great question.

What exactly constitutes worshipping God? What is a worshipful act as defined from the Bible?

 

[bound]

Do you worship Jesus?

or

Do you worship God?

or

Both?

Grace and Peace mojoala,

Personally I can say 'yes' to all three questions but be aware that both are sharers of the Divine Nature and our Salvation.

For through him [Christ] we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. - Ephesians 2:18

You believe in a GodHead.

I believe in the Divine Nature shared by the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Again reflect on Ephesians 2:18 for a moment.

You can do all types of linguistics on it, but the issue still is you can pray to at least 2 individual members of the trinity. You can beseech Christ or you can beseech God.

Perhaps we need to discuss what you mean by 'individual members'. That appears to be making too great a distinction of the Divine Personas and perhaps suggesting distinct 'wills' within the Godhead. Remember as Christians we believe in One God not three and there is a 'unity' within the Godhead which does not create distinctions between the wills of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You appear to be using the philosophical articulation of the Trinity to suggest Tri-theism which is 'not' Biblical nor is it particularly Christian.

What exactly constitutes worshipping God? What is a worshipful act as defined from the Bible?

Prayer, Praise, Thanksgiving and Glorifying of God as our Creator, Sustainer and Saviour, period.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[mojoala]

Grace and Peace mojoala,

Personally I can say 'yes' to all three questions but be aware that both are sharers of the Divine Nature and our Salvation.

For through him [Christ] we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. - Ephesians 2:18



I believe in the Divine Nature shared by the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Again reflect on Ephesians 2:18 for a moment.



Perhaps we need to discuss what you mean by 'individual members'. That appears to be making too great a distinction of the Divine Personas and perhaps suggesting distinct 'wills' within the Godhead. Remember as Christians we believe in One God not three and there is a 'unity' within the Godhead which does not create distinctions between the wills of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You appear to be using the philosophical articulation of the Trinity to suggest Tri-theism which is 'not' Biblical nor is it particularly Christian.



Prayer, Praise, Thanksgiving and Glorifying of God as our Creator, Sustainer and Saviour, period.

Peace and God Bless.

Amen, no more argument from me.

 

[Claudia_T]

Sunday sabbath comes from paganism. Peter in the place of Jupiter is paganism... the fish hat on the pope is pagan... lots of stuff

 

[Linda64]

Sunday sabbath comes from paganism. Peter in the place of Jupiter is paganism... the fish hat on the pope is pagan... lots of stuff

There is no Sunday Sabbath--Sabbath was never changed from Saturday to Sunday. That is one thing that the RCC did not change--however the other two things mentioned in the above quote ARE pagan--plus lots of other things. Here are a few:

1. the Pope and the "alleged" apostolic succession and Peter being the first Pope.
2. the worship of Mary
3. Purgatory
4. the Immaculate Conception--that Mary was born sinless; Mary being the mother of God is pagan.
5. Transubstantiation
6. the sacrifice of the Mass

I could go on and on--but that's enough for starters

 

[BobRyan]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I wonder if Bob Ryan buys his wife Flowers and Candies on Valentines Day? Is that not a pagan holiday as well?

Does or Did Bob Ryan's children and/or grandchildren participate in the pagan Easter festivities of Easter Egg hunts.

Does Bob Ryan put up a christmas tree during Christmas? or for that matter all of the Christmas Pagan stuff that has crept in.


Does Bob Ryan foster the belief in Santa Claus to the young?

Does Bob Ryan celebrate the Birth of Jesus in December or does it celebrate at it's rightful time of Late Spring or Early Summer?



Does Bob Ryan wear a wedding band on his left hand? The wedding band is pagan. Consider this:



Does Bob Ryan exchange presents during Christmas?

If you had asked me whether those practices came out of paganism - I would have said "YES" as well.

Granted.

But IF my denomination had stated that "easter eggs are holy" the way the RCC declared praying to the dead to be holy - I would certainly have a problem. (Not that we are doing the easter bunny thing anymore).

IF my denomination had stated that the easter bunny would now be "coming to church" and we would be bowing before it - as the RCC brought the pagan idols into the church and pronounced them to be saints (Pagan Parthanon comes to mind) then -- YES I would say THAT is bringing paganism INTO the church.

As your own historian - Bokenkotter said -- "With its rituals borrowed from paganism" He does not say "With its picnics and holiday parties borrowed from paganism".

Do I need to go further? This seems more like a case of the Pot calling the Kettle BLACK!

You are grossly equivocating between what is done IN WORSHIP in church and what is done culturally at a picnic!!

What makes you think that a blatant fallacy of that kind would be compelling form of debate?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[mojoala]

If you had asked me whether those practices came out of paganism - I would have said "YES" as well.

Granted.

But IF my denomination had stated that "easter eggs are holy" the way the RCC declared praying to the dead to be holy - I would certainly have a problem. (Not that we are doing the easter bunny thing anymore).

IF my denomination had stated that the easter bunny would now be "coming to church" and we would be bowing before it - as the RCC brought the pagan idols into the church and pronounced them to be saints (Pagan Parthanon comes to mind) then -- YES I would say THAT is bringing paganism INTO the church.

As your own historian - Bokenkotter said -- "With its rituals borrowed from paganism" He does not say "With its picnics and holiday parties borrowed from paganism".



You are grossly equivocating between what is done IN WORSHIP in church and what is done culturally at a picnic!!

What makes you think that a blatant fallacy of that kind would be compelling form of debate?

In Christ,

Bob

paganism is paganism. It does not matter where it is done.

 

[mojoala]

There is no Sunday Sabbath--Sabbath was never changed from Saturday to Sunday. That is one thing that the RCC did not change--however the other two things mentioned in the above quote ARE pagan--plus lots of other things. Here are a few:

1. the Pope and the "alleged" apostolic succession and Peter being the first Pope.
2. the worship of Mary
3. Purgatory
4. the Immaculate Conception--that Mary was born sinless; Mary being the mother of God is pagan.
5. Transubstantiation
6. the sacrifice of the Mass

I could go on and on--but that's enough for starters

Please cite the origin of the pagan source associated with each one.

 

[mojoala]

Sunday sabbath comes from paganism. Peter in the place of Jupiter is paganism... the fish hat on the pope is pagan... lots of stuff

Peter in the place of Jupiter? explain.
fish hat? explain

 

[mojoala]

Bob Ryan, what exactly constitutes worshiip? What are elements of worship. What is the Biblical definition of Worship?

 

[JamieinNH]

Please provide me with anything that you consider to all of the paganizm of the RCC. I want to research these issues.

mojoala, you asked for anything that anyone considered pagan because you want to research these items, and yet when someone gives you a list like Claudia and Linda did, you want them to do your research for you?

You asked for a list, and they gave it to you. In reading this thread, it would seem that you don't want to research it with an openmind, you only want to try to dispell the "myths" and opinions of people about the RCC.

If you have made up your mind already, what's the point of doing "research".

Can I ask you, are you a RC?


Jamie

 

[BobRyan]

Yes absolutely mojoala is RC -

Just collecting a "list" of "pagan like practices" in the RCC as seen from the POV of non-RC Christians.

This list should be very "helpful" in helping mo conduct research focus.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan, what exactly constitutes worshiip? What are elements of worship. What is the Biblical definition of Worship?

Payer TO the deity-
Devotion and service - obedience sworn TO the family god in question
Praying before the altars of said family god or dead ancestor.

Etc.

 

[BobRyan]

Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

Pagan prayer methods.

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

 

[mojoala]

mojoala, you asked for anything that anyone considered pagan because you want to research these items, and yet when someone gives you a list like Claudia and Linda did, you want them to do your research for you?

You asked for a list, and they gave it to you. In reading this thread, it would seem that you don't want to research it with an openmind, you only want to try to dispell the "myths" and opinions of people about the RCC.

If you have made up your mind already, what's the point of doing "research".

Can I ask you, are you a RC?


Jamie

No I am not. I have stopped attending any one church. I am at a different church every sunday, searching for that which most resembles the first century church. And right now those that even come close are Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholic. Baptists are the furthest thing from the first Century.

I grew up a Congregational Holiness(Holy Rollers).

Yes, I asked. But I expect people to educated answers.

 

[BobRyan]

Why then do you quote only from RC sources and push RC doctrines that are NOT practiced by Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran or even the wild and liberal Anglicans?

If as you claim - of ALL THESE THINGS - you are LEAST inclined to the truths of scripture taught by the Baptists - WHY does your profile say you ARE a baptist that is "thinking of leaving"?

 

[BobRyan]

paganism is paganism. It does not matter where it is done.

That is the fallacy of equivocation to claim that SINCE someone went to a park and had an easter egg hunt -- the CHURCH should start bringing in pagan idols/images into church and worshipping before them as do the pagans.

That is the fallacy of equivocation to claim that SINCE someone went to a park and had an easter egg hunt -- the CHURCH should start praying to dead ancestors worshipping before them as do the pagans.

That is the fallacy of equivocation to claim that SINCE someone went to a park and had an easter egg hunt -- the CHURCH should reject sola scriptura accountability -- and start making stuff up out of whole cloth -- man made tradition taken for doctrine as do the pagans.