What Happened?

Yup. Very true. The New Testament very clearly teaches a rudimentary demonology. While the New Testament doesn't dwell on the subject of demons (the focus is Christ and life He has given us), there is no doubt that the demonic powers are allied against the Kingdom and kingdom seekers.

That's ignorance talking... also the rationalist/materialist mindset that is common among believers in the Western world -- both "liberal" and "fundamental".

They are still very much with us.

You won't find any teaching like that in the Bible.

They do, but it is not often recognized in our culture.

In my opinion there are at least five major reasons why:

1.) Many people who are mentally ill are struggling with demonic oppression. Not everyone who is mentally ill is being demonically oppressed and there are often physical and emotional reasons for mental illness, but our culture usually ignores the spiritual when dealing with mental illness.

2.) Some religious leaders are likely to be demonically influenced. They may act very religious, but they are leading people to embrace clever substitutes for the Kingdom life like pet doctrines, an emphasis on legalism or a practical denial of grace in everyday life. They may also be the source of disputes because of their attacks on their brothers and sisters in Christ. You can recognize them by their lies and lack of love. The New Testament mentions a man who was worshipping in the synagogue who was completely demonized, yet the people around him probably did not recognize it until Jesus appeared.

Luke 4:33-35
(verse 33) In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice,
(verse 34) "Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are -- the Holy One of God!"
(verse 35) But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet and come out of him!" And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst of the people, he came out of him without doing him any harm.

3.) The demonic realm works usually in the battlefields of culture instead of the battlefields of a single human being. These force are the principalities and powers of the world that seek to destroy. The movements of terrorism, pornography, molestation, anti-Christian theology, non-Christian cults, and the drug trade all bear the marks of the evil one.

4.) Many Christians, even Baptists, have faced visible and unmistakable manifestations of the demonic, but do not talk about it much for fear of being misunderstood. Most Christians in the pew are not ready to deal with the reality and don't want to know about it. The power of denial is a lot stronger than most of us want to admit.

5.) Many people who are demonized are well outside the contact points of most churches. They are people for whom the standard American church cannot or will not minister to... I knew some people who operated a street ministry in Houston who dealt with explicit manifestations of the demonic occasionally in their ministry to runaway youth caught up in prostitution and drugs. Since most churches are not storming the gates of hell for desperately needy converts, but instead looking for socially acceptable members who will contribute to the financial and social status quo, they never engage the evil one.

 

Mark 16:9-20 is probably a later addition. It is not in the early mss, and the style and word usage are quite different from the rest of Mark. The NIV Study Bible note reads as follows:

Serious doubt exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8 or its original ending has been lost.

 

I recently read a book by Tony Evans called "The Battle is the Lords" that talked about the demon world and how it affects our lives. We are all in a spiritual battle with Satan and his army of demons, to ignore this FACT would be very dangerous to any Christian, IMO.

Romans 8:38

 

demons are still around, but unfortunately they don't wear name tags identifing themselves.

I think some of these so called psychics like John Edward on tv are actually speaking to demons. Demons watch men and women in daily life, it is only logoical that they would know facts about a family member. The things that are passed along are always nice things. These so dead people never say they are burning in hell. Just another form of deception by the evil one.

 

I doubt John Edwards is speaking to demons. In fact, I doubt he is speaking to anyone, other than the ratings meter.

 

The charasimatics, of which I used to belong (AOG), may have many faults and 'strange' doctrines, but they are 'right on' when it comes to demons and spiritual warfare.

I've seen demons "in action," wrecking havoc in peoples lives.

If anyone would walk up to me and claim that demons didn't exist, I'd laugh in their face, and then sit them down and have a long talk with them about the reality of satan and his demons.

God Bless!!!

Adam

 

Maybe scripture itself is culturally conditioned and we need not accept pre-scientific understandings without deliberation.

 

If you expressed this view to me in early 1986, I would likely agree with you. But I have experienced visible demonic manifestations (some in the presence of a number of witnesses from various positions in the room/area and with backing testimony from others who were not immediately present.) These encounters included believers of various maturity levels and a college professor of theology. We were praying for a group of college students and local townspeople who were heavily involved in a self-styled satanist cult that met in town. They were involved in animal sacrifices and rituals at a local abandoned warehouse. We also talked to the local police department who was having trouble with cattle mutilations. The cattle were drained of blood and sometimes skinned and left in the front lawns of people whom they wanted to frighten. We saw two people come out of the group, one of them converted and one who still seemed addicted to the power (a pastor's daughter by the way), and I don't know what happened to her after about a year.

But I don't have to rely on my own experience...

If asked, some missionaries tell of power encounters on the field and occasionally local Baptist pastors have encountered them in persons they were counseling.

Beyond that and most importantly, the contemporary experiences seem to match what the New Testament describes.

Based on straightforward (admittedly prescientific) accounts in the New Testament of demonic powers and encounters throughout the ages of the church similar to what is described in the New Testament, I believe that any rationalizing away of the demonic is untenable.

Just in case you think I see demons behind every bush, I have not knowingly encountered a visible demonic manifestation since 1991.

I am not afraid of that sort of display and I know how to trust the Lord to put those powers in their place.

[ November 13, 2002, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

Eph 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(KJV)

By any other name a demon is a demon.

 

They may be Scripture, but they were not written by the writer of Mark! I know we are in spiritual warfare. I know demons are real, and I doubt that anyone who has read any of my posts on BB for very long doubts that I am a born again believer in the God of the Bible and will attest to miracles in my own life.

None of that alters, however, the fact that those last verses of Mark are not in the most reliable early manuscripts, that the language, vocabulary and grammar are different from the rest of the chapter, and that Jesus told us not to preach the good news to all 'creation' but to all 'nations' which is quite a different matter! In addition, this section is the only one that commands baptism for salvation, and that is not part of any other section of the New Testament, where baptism is a sign of obedience and testimony of a salvation already attained and not of one to be attained.

In addition, I know I am a believer and born again and I have never spoken in a tongue (although I am -- or was -- a deaf interpreter), have never cast out a demon, have only picked up non-poisonous snakes, and have no intention of trying out a drink of deadly poison (It is written thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God...). I have five adopted special case kids and none of them have been healed by the laying on of hands, although I am convinced that prayer kept me alive when I was expected by doctors to die after an emergency surgery.

What the end of Mark sounds like to me, in other words, is like an early Benny Hinn or the like inserted it. Heaven knows this section has spawned some really weird cults.

Now, if I were to run into a rattlesnake and be bitten or if I were given poison that I did not know was poison and drank it, the Lord may or may not preserve me through it. But like Meschak, Shadrak, and Abednego, my life is in the Lord's hands and He can do with me as He will. If He preserves me through anything that 'ought' to kill me (and, as a matter of fact already has three times that I know of!) then that is because of HIM and what HE chooses to do, not because I am a believer per se. Other believers die from these things. That does not make them less than believers, although the end of Mark would imply such.

There is evidence that I am aware of of three insertions in the New Testament. The end of Mark, John 7:53-8:11 (the attempted stoning of the prostitute) and that bit of marginal note that ended up getting inserted into 1 John 5:7 (which is not found in any mss before the 16th century). The latter two don't bother me at all, actually, but the ending of Mark does because of the cults and charismatic beliefs it has engendered.

 

[ December 11, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Jessie ]

 

Jessie, demonic possession and influences are very real and that may be what is going on there. I do think it is much rarer in the United States than in Africa and the East, however, from the stories I have heard....but maybe not considering the way the occult is being welcomed into American life now!

 

[ December 11, 2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Jessie ]

 

Bingo, Jessie.

 

Interesting... There used to be stories about a house just like that in Nederland, Texas. Does that happen to be the place you are referring to?

 

[ December 11, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Jessie ]

 

Haunted houses? Shurrr. Letting irrational fears become an obsession leads to incidents like the European witch hunts and Salem. Demons must be like 2nd-rate celebrities with publicity agents-- they just want to be talked about and get credit for things they have little or nothing to do with. Then some people will elevate their power or influence; many more will deny it. It's the former group which turn out to be the dangerous of the two.

 

I pretty skeptical about "haunted" houses myself. I asked about the "AOG preacher's house" because it sounded just like a story told in my hometown.

If there is such a thing as "haunted" houses, it is only done for the benefit of reinforcing false doctrine about the spirit world. Otherwise it seems like a waste of time for the demonic realms.