What is baptism of the Holy Spirit?

[bmerr]

Michael,

bmerr here. Good to hear from you again, sir! You always make me break out my study tools. We did let our last discussion fall by the wayside. The fault was likely on my part, the business of life, etc.

I indeed stand corrected. My 2nd question should have been, "What is the form of that doctrine", since God has only authorized one form of the Gospel of Christ.

You did, in fact answer the 1st question correctly. The doctrine that had been delivered to the Romans was the Gospel, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

The 2nd question, well, I think you kind of side-stepped it, circling around to 1 Cor 15:1. That's the declaration of the Gospel, but not the form of the Gospel.

I do not possess a copy of Thayer's Dictionary, but the lexicon in the back of my Strong's defines the word translated "obeyed" in Rom 6:17 as:

"5219. hupakouo, hoop-ak-oo'-o; from 5259 and 101; to hear under (as a subordinate), i.e. to listen attentively; by impl. to heed or conform to a command or authority:-hearken, be obedient to, obey."

So a command is implied, and their obedience to that command is stated explicitly.

For the word translated as "form", I found,

5179. tupos, too'-pos; from 5180; a die (as struck), i.e. (by impl.) a stamp or scar; by anal. a shape, i.e. a statue, (fig.) style or resemblance; spec. a sampler ("type"), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning): -en- (ex-) ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print.

Seems to me there was a commanded figure, form, or resemblance of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, which the Romans obeyed, at which point they were made free from sin.

Would you like to try question #2 again?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[bmerr]

Here, I have to partially agree and partially disagree with bmerr.

Baptism has nothing to do with getting you born into the family.

Hope,

bmerr here. I didn't see the part where you agreed with me :laugh: ! Part of being born into the family of God, or being born again is being "born of water". The Greek dictionary (I referred to it as a lexicon to Michael - my mistake) in the back of Strong's Concordance defines the word translated "born" in John 3:3-5 as,

1080. gennao, ghen-nah'-o; from a var. of 1085; to procreate (prop. of the father, but by extens. of the mother); fig. to regenerate:-bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

The word translated "water" is defined as,

5204. hudor, hoo'dore; gen. hudatos, hoo'-dat'os, etc.; from the base of 5205; water (as if rainy) lit. or fig.:-water.

I don't see how "born of water" can be anything other than a reference to baptism, which would make baptism essential to being born into the family.

However, baptism is necessary for obedience.

And Jesus is only going to save those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

It's a work on the part of the saved individual.

What work is done by the one submitting to baptism? I often hear baptism described as a work, but I don't recall doing anything but allowing someone else to lower me into the water and bring me back up out of it. I didn't work at all.

Secondly, the Scriptures state very plainly that baptism doth also now save us (1 Pet 3:21). Whichever baptism Peter spoke of there, (he compared it to water), it is that baptism which saves us, so to say that baptism is something a saved person does puts one out of order with the Scriptures. Read Mark 16:16 again, and see what order belief, baptism and salvation come in.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Bmerr,

The 2nd question, well, I think you kind of side-stepped it, circling around to 1 Cor 15:1. That's the declaration of the Gospel, but not the form of the Gospel.

No, I don't think I side-stepped it. You're using the word "form" to mean "representation," and I don't think that's at all what Paul meant in that verse. According to Thayer's, the word can mean the whole body of teaching or (and I didn't mention this one in my last post) it can mean an example.

To obey can mean to obey a specific order (in this case, you would want the verse to read, "Obeyed the command to imitate via representation the form of that doctrine..."), or it can simply mean, as you pointed out, to listen attentively and heed. So heeding the whole teaching of the Gospel is obeying the form of the Gospel.

Michael

 

[Hope of Glory]

I hate to do this, but I'm going to respond and then I'll be gone for a couple of days. (Probably. I might be back this evening.) I'm going to respond to parts to keep it from getting out of control sizewise and turning into a 100 page, three-way essay...:laugh:

Hope,

bmerr here. I didn't see the part where you agreed with me :laugh: ! Part of being born into the family of God, or being born again is being "born of water". The Greek dictionary (I referred to it as a lexicon to Michael - my mistake) in the back of Strong's Concordance defines the word translated "born" in John 3:3-5 as,

First of all, can you show me where "born again" is in the Scriptures in John 3? (I'll give you a hint: "Born again" is used in only two verses in the NT and they're not in John.)

Now, in John 3:5, baptism is indeed being talked about, but it comes after one is born into the family in John 3:3. (I will comment on this later, after your response, for reasons that might (or might not) be obvious afterward.)

I don't see how "born of water" can be anything other than a reference to baptism,

I agree with this statement 100%! Either spirit and water are both figurative, or they're both literal, and I think they're both literal. Even if it's "spirit" instead of "the Spirit", which the text leaves open to both interpretations, it's literal, therefore "water" is also literal.

which would make baptism essential to being born into the family.

This is where I disagree, and I'll show you why later, after your next response. This even comes after you're born into the family.

And Jesus is only going to save those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

What does it mean to be saved?

What work is done by the one submitting to baptism? I often hear baptism described as a work, but I don't recall doing anything but allowing someone else to lower me into the water and bring me back up out of it. I didn't work at all.

You answered it yourself: Submitting. It's obedience to a command. (Unless someone comes up and tackles you and forcefully dunks you.)

Secondly, the Scriptures state very plainly that baptism doth also now save us (1 Pet 3:21). Whichever baptism Peter spoke of there, (he compared it to water), it is that baptism which saves us, so to say that baptism is something a saved person does puts one out of order with the Scriptures. Read Mark 16:16 again, and see what order belief, baptism and salvation come in.

In Christ,

bmerr

Also, I would like to save this one until later, otherwise I think it will send us off on rabbit trails or derail us altogether. (I just love mixing metaphors!)

 

[bmerr]

You're using the word "form" to mean "representation,"...it can mean an example.

Michael,

bmerr here. Granted, "form" can mean "example". So there was an example of the Gospel the Romans were commanded to obey.

To obey can mean to obey a specific order,... or it can simply mean, as you pointed out, to listen attentively and heed. So heeding the whole teaching of the Gospel is obeying the form of the Gospel.

How would one heed a command apart from obeying it? Let's say a police officer commanded you to, I don't know, "Put your hands up!" How would you heed that command? By believing it and keeping your hands at your side? Of course not! You'd put your hands up.

The Romans (and every other person the gospel was/is presented to correctly) were commanded to heed an example or representation of the Gospel, and they did so, thus being made free from sin. What was the example or representation of the Gospel that was commanded them?

Maybe we could look earlier in the same chapter where Paul speaks about being planted in the likeness of his death (Rom 6:5). What was he talking about in that passage?

How about in other conversion accounts, where the command might actually be given explicitly?

I think you're making this harder than it has to be.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Bmerr,

Granted, "form" can mean "example". So there was an example of the Gospel the Romans were commanded to obey.

I don't know, now that I think about it, if "example" is the best translation, since there are many "examples" of the Gospel, but they only got one. Here's what we know from the passage:

1. They were slaves to sin (I think we agree that they were unsaved at that point)
2. They obeyed or heeded from the heart the form/outward representation of doctrine they were delivered.
3. There is only one such form/outward representation of doctrine--living the Gospel.
4. Heeding the Gospel had several results:
A) They were set free from sin (we agree that they were saved at that point, right?)
B) They became slaves of righteousness (verse 18 is the application of the principle in verse 16)
C) Now that they are slaves of righteousness, they yield their members to righteousness

Now, you keep trying to get me to say that the "form of the doctrine" was baptism. Bmerr, I just don't see that in this passage. Earlier in the chapter, perhaps, you'd have a case, but here? No, all I see are people heeding the Gospel and being set free from sin. This passage is perfectly harmonized with the idea of salvation given to the repentant believer.

Now, logically, the next question to pursue is, "How does one heed the Gospel?" You would say through faith at the point of baptism for the remission of sins. I, on the other hand, would say it's at the point of faith and repentance (for the remission of sins) because I believe that such is what the Bible teaches.

What was the example or representation of the Gospel that was commanded them?

I'll be honest: I've never really worked through this passage. It seems, though, that the "form" of the doctrine (from the context of the passage) refers to repentance--a change of heart from disobedience unto death to obedience unto holiness.

Maybe we could look earlier in the same chapter where Paul speaks about being planted in the likeness of his death (Rom 6:5). What was he talking about in that passage?

Obviously, our immersion into Christ. Not our immersion into water, mind you, but into Christ Himself, wherein the old man is crucified (verse 6--which explains the likeness of His death). Of course, water baptism symbolizes and reflects our true immersion into Christ. It is, indeed, a testimony to the salvation we've received.

How about in other conversion accounts, where the command might actually be given explicitly?

If you're boiling the whole message of Romans 6:16-18 down to baptism (I'm assuming that's the command you're thinking about) or any other single command, then I'm afraid you've completley missed the point of the passage, which is an entirely transformed life.

Michael

 

[Hope of Glory]

I don't know, now that I think about it, if "example" is the best translation, since there are many "examples" of the Gospel, but they only got one.

Are you sure about that? "Gospel" means simply "good news", and the NT talks about the gospel of the Kingdom, Paul's gospel, the gospel of salvation, the gospel of Jesus Christ...

The list goes on.

 

[Snitzelhoff]

I disagree with your "multiple Gospel" theory, Hope of Glory. This, however, would not be the appropriate thread in which to pursue the idea of a single Gospel versus multiple Gospels in the New Testament. Shall we make its own thread and discuss it?

Michael

 

[Hope of Glory]

Since you are the one talking about "heeding the gospel" in this thread, why is it not appropriate to ask you which gospel?

And, if you claim there is only one gospel, then we can go from there as well.

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Fair enough. I do believe there to be only one Gospel, but I didn't want this thread to get derailed into a discussion over how many Gospels are present in the NT.

Michael

 

[Hope of Glory]

I don't think it will get derailed by answering that question. Now, back to the issue at hand:

What must I do to be saved?

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Christ saves on the basis of faith alone. And that faith must be placed in Him alone.

So, belief in Christ and repentance from everything else (the two sides of trusting in Christ alone) are all that are necessary for you to be saved.

Michael

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, believe in Jesus and then repent from everything else?

You can't believe in the Lord Jesus without repenting of everything else?

 

[bmerr]

I don't know, now that I think about it, if "example" is the best translation, since there are many "examples" of the Gospel, but they only got one.

Michael,

bmerr here. Instead of "example", how about "figure"? They would have "obeyed that figure of the doctrine". We both understand that the doctrine they had received was the Gospel. The baptism which Paul describes is a burial and a raising (Rom 6:3-5; Col2:12). The only baptism under the NT that fits this description is immersion in water.

When one is immersed (baptized), the old man is buried, and the new man is raised up out of the water. It is symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. And, baptism is a command to be obeyed.

Here's what we know from the passage:

3. There is only one such form/outward representation of doctrine--living the Gospel.

Agreed on the other points, but the doctrine of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, which is what the Apostles were sent by Christ to bear witness to (Acts 1:8), has only one authorized, or commanded form, or representation: water baptism (Acts 2:38, 8:35-36, 10:47-48, 22:16, etc).

C) Now that they are slaves of righteousness, they yield their members to righteousness

If anything, I'd say it is the yielding of our members to righteousness that sums up living the Christian life, or living the Gospel.

This passage is perfectly harmonized with the idea of salvation given to the repentant believer.

There is an example of a man who was a penitent believer, and yet was still in his sins. Paul was told, after three days of prayer and fasting, subsequent to his seeing the risen Christ on the road to Damascus, "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

Paul was commanded to submit to a form of the doctrine of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, even after he had already believed and repented. There was still a command for Paul to obey before he would be free from sin.

I'll be honest: I've never really worked through this passage. It seems, though, that the "form" of the doctrine (from the context of the passage) refers to repentance--a change of heart from disobedience unto death to obedience unto holiness.

How does repentance serve as an example, form, representation, or symbol of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection?

The point I'm making has been acknowledged by you, though not conceded. Yes, I think it is quite plain that water baptism is the form of the doctrine which they obeyed, as it was obeyed by every other person who responded favorably to the gospel.

N.B. Hardeman illustrated the issue something like this:

If a woman is receptive to a suiter's marriage proposal, she is not instantly married to him. Though she loves him, and believes he will care for her, she must resolve to forsake all others (repent) and follow him wherever he goes.

Yet, she is still not married to the man.

There is a ceremony, in which they swear their love and loyalty to each other, and only then, after the ceremony, are they pronounced to be married. It is in baptism that we enter His death, come "into Christ" (Rom 6:3; Gal 3:27).

Take again the example of Saul. He had seen the risen Christ, and believed. He had repented of his sin, and indicated his willingness to do what Jesus wanted, even asking Him, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" But Jesus didn't tell him what to do. He told him to go into the city, and it would be told him what he "must do".

Now, if you look at all three instances where the events following the "Damascus road encounter" are spoken of, (Acts 9:7-18, 22:11-16, 13-18), the only thing that Saul was commanded to do was to be baptized.

It's important for us to determine what it means to "obey the gospel", for the 2nd Coming will not be a good time for those who don't (2 Thes 1:7-9).

Time for bed.

In Christ,
bmerr

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Bmerr,

I don't buy that the "form of the doctrine" was a single act symbolic of the Gospel, but rather heeding the Gospel as a whole--that is, representing the doctrine in their lives. Regarding the phrase, Adam Clarke has this to say:

That form of doctrine
τυπονδιδαχης; here Christianity is represented under the notion of a mould, or die, into which they were cast, and from which they took the impression of its excellence. The figure upon this die is the image of God, righteousness and true holiness, which was stamped on their souls in believing the Gospel and receiving the Holy Ghost. The words ειςονπαρεδοθητετυπον refer to the melting of metal; which, when it is liquified, is cast into the mould, that it may receive the impression that is sunk or cut in the mould; and therefore the words may be literally translated, into which mould of doctrine ye have been cast. They were melted down under the preaching of the word, and then were capable of receiving the stamp of its purity

I'm not typically one to just do a copy/paste job for a debate; however, I thought he explained the point I was attempting to make much better than I did, and has a firmer grasp of the Greek language than I do by which he could make it.

I do not believe that Paul's intention in Romans 6:17 was to speak of baptism, but rather being conformed to the Gospel message.

Even Matthew Henry, who definitely sees baptism as essential for salvation (see his notes on Acts 2:38, Romans 6:4, etc.) does not see baptism here, but rather a conformity to the Gospel.

The outline I gave before, then, is accurate. The imagery Paul is using is being cast into a mold, and thus being conformed to Christ Himself--not merely being baptized.

I must go for now, but soon I will post on Paul's conversion.

Michael

 

[bmerr]

Michael,

bmerr here. I have no objections to the occasional cut and paste. I just figured out how to do it from e-sword to here. (I'm so low-tech!) It saves a lot of typing, and, like you said, sometimes others have already said things more clearly than we are able.

Of course, the down side is that we tend to cut and paste from sources that agree with us, but that's to be expected, I guess.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Hope of Glory]

Sometimes, when you cut and paste from eSword, it changes your fonts for some reason.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I finally couldn't resist. After our last thread died the death of negligence, I had to come back and meet you on this subject (which is approximately where we left off last time, I believe).

1. The Gospel, obviously--the death of Christ for our sins, His burial, and His Resurrection (the Gospel as defined by Paul in I Corinthians 15).
2. Not a form, but the form. Let's see what ol' Mr. Thayer had to say about the word "Form" (the Greek word has several translations, but under the meaning "Form," Thayer said)--"the teaching which embodies the sum and substance of religion and represents it to the mind, manner of writing, the contents and form of a letter". They obeyed the teaching which embodied the sum and substance of Christianity and represented it to the mind. Any guesses on what the form of Christian doctrine might be? I'll give you a hint: in my Bible, it starts with, "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the Gospel..."

Now, let's talk about the word "obey". This is, in this case, not "obey" as in "obey an order", though it can have that definition. This Greek word means, more precisely, "heed". They heeded the Gospel, and by so doing they were made free from sin.

So, yeah, I think I answered your two questions.

Michael[/quote]

GE:

Nice to read someone writes sense on this thread!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

bmerr:

"Why then the numerous explicit references to water in connection with baptism (Acts 8:38-39; 10:47; 1 Pet 3:21)?"

GE:

'Numerous'? You give two 'explicit references to water in connection with baptism and a third, explicitly DENYING that the baptism which "saves", is water-connected!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE:

You haven not yet seen the baptism by the Spirit of Christ -- the baptism BY the Holy Spirit, "IN the Name ..." for what it in truth is - a spiritual baptism, a spiritual, faith-matter "CO-baptism"; a spiritual, faith-matter "CO-burial", and a spiritual, faith-matter "CO-resurrection", literal quote: "WITH / IN Christ". The believer, IN HIM. Only baptism "with fire power" - the baptism of or with the Spirit, fits the description -- the baptism of Christ what Christians need in order to be saved and redeemed from sin and its reward and grip upon him, death.

bmerr:

Where in all of Scripture did you find all of that?

GE:

In Romans 5-6 or in Colossians 2-- to name but two Scriptures. For the eye of faith, it may be read in many more.

What is a 'faith-matter'? As when partaking of the Lord's Supper, we confess: 'As by faith partaking of the Lord's Body ....'.
I am surprised you find it a strange expression though most probably for the first time. It's just the 'old-time religion' -- nothing to improve on it; we only express it a bit differently now and then.