What is Faith?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dustin: I'm not a fatalist, I'm a predestinarian, a determinist.

Wickapedia: Determinism should not be mistaken for fatalism.[3][4] Although determinists would accept that the future is, in some sense, set, they accept human actions as factors that will cause the future to take the shape that it will - even though those human actions are themselves determined; if they had been different, the future would also be different.

HP: Sorry, but this is nothing short of sophistical argumentation. If human actions were different, they would have had to have been just as determined, just in another way. The key to the problem lies in this statement. “even though those human actions are themselves determined .”

This argument and distinction between determinism and fatalism is meaningless as far as I see it. Such a distinction is no more meaningful than the following statement. If a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his rear every time he jumps.

 

[Dustin]

Well that's ok with me, I just wanted you to know I'm NOT a fatalist. No matter if you like the argument or not, though, predestination and election are still in the Bible.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dustin: Paul is speaking to believers here. Look at verse 5, "are one body in Christ", this is speaking of believers, not the world as a whole.

Context is key.

HP: I cannot help but think that when one changes “every man” to “each one” the context is lost or changed in the translation.

Would you deny that every man has been given the ability to have and place their faith in God in some measure? If all men have not, then is it not logical that it would be an impossibility for such a one to have faith, thereby making God responsible for the predestination of the damned? Do you hold to double predestination as did Calvin? If not, how do you see yourself as logically avoiding such a notion?

 

[Dustin]

HP said: I cannot help but think that when one changes “every man” to “each one” the context is lost or changed in the translation.


I'm saying that the context is Paul is saying every one in Christ, not every man in the whole world, a simple read from the text will tell you that.

HP said: Would you deny that every man has been given the ability to have and place their faith in God in some measure?

Yes, I deny that every single person is given saving faith by God. Saving faith is only given to the elect. The reprobate can believe in God, even as the demons believe, but such faith is unable to save. Only faith in Christ given by God can save a man.

HP said: If all men have not, then is it not logical that it would be an impossibility for such a one to have faith, thereby making God responsible for the predestination of the damned?

That is not just logical, it's true. I affirm this. I ask, who else would be responsible for this?

Do you hold to double predestination as did Calvin? If not, how do you see yourself as logically avoiding such a notion?

Yes, I believe God is just as active in the damnation of the reprobate as He is in saving His elect. I USED to try to logically avoid this, but that argument doesn't have any foundation.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP said: I cannot help but think that when one changes “every man” to “each one” the context is lost or changed in the translation.

Dustin: I'm saying that the context is Paul is saying every one in Christ, not every man in the whole world, a simple read from the text will tell you that.

HP: I disagree. There is no way from the text that you can establish that only the saved are being addressed in that statement. That is sheer conjecture on your part.

HP said: Would you deny that every man has been given the ability to have and place their faith in God in some measure?

Dustin: Yes, I deny that every single person is given saving faith by God.

HP: What gives one the right to inject ‘saving’ into the text? It simply states faith, not ‘saving faith.’

HP said: If all men have not, then is it not logical that it would be an impossibility for such a one to have faith, thereby making God responsible for the predestination of the damned?

Dustin: That is not just logical, it's true. I affirm this. I ask, who else would be responsible for this?

HP: In order to have faith, one must be granted a measure of faith. A measure of faith does not force or coerce faith into being, but rather creates an influence strong enough to allow the mind to utilize that influence to persuade the will to act in accordance to it.

Dustin: Yes, I believe God is just as active in the damnation of the reprobate as He is in saving His elect. I USED to try to logically avoid this, but that argument doesn't have any foundation.

HP: How can such a view as you put forth not be classified as pure fatalism? Are you going to tell us that it is possible for one damned by God to overcome necessitated fate? I say not even God can do that. Trust me, God will never receive any glory from damning men to an eternal hell that never had the slightest possibility of ending up anywhere else. That paints nothing short of a hideous blight upon the character of a Just God. There is not a just person alive that should not shrink in horror of such a wicked scenerio.

I would strongly suggest that you go back to some of that God instilled logic and wisdom you have obviously thrown aside.

 

[Dustin]

HP said: I disagree. There is no way from the text that you can establish that only the saved are being addressed in that statement. That is sheer conjecture on your part.


You obviously haven't read it, at least lately. All it takes is common reading skills. Sheer conjecture? More likely a misreading of the text, trying to make your dogma fit into it. A triangle shaped block doesn't fit the square shaped hole my friend.

Paul is speaking to believers, the body of Christ, not all of mankind. Read it, it's there.




HP: What gives one the right to inject ‘saving’ into the text? It simply states faith, not ‘saving faith.’

In the book of James, it says that even demons believe in God and tremble. In the Gospels, the demons know who Christ is, they confess he is the Son of God, but that confession doesn't save them. They have a sort of faith but not saving faith. I'm saying, for the sake of understanding, that there is a difference between faith that saves and faith that doesn't. Disagreeing with this has no point in this debate whatsoever. It's not addressing anything and it is mere complaining.




HP said: In order to have faith, one must be granted a measure of faith. A measure of faith does not force or coerce faith into being, but rather creates an influence strong enough to allow the mind to utilize that influence to persuade the will to act in accordance to it.

Now THAT is conjecture. Show me from the text.


HP said: How can such a view as you put forth not be classified as pure fatalism?

I attempted to explain that earlier, but you wouldn't have it.

Hp said: Are you going to tell us that it is possible for one damned by God to overcome necessitated fate?

No, I don't believe that at all. I believe God's Will is immutable. I believe God accomplishes anything it is He wants to accomplish. I believe that nothing can make God's Will ineffectual. I believe God is in complete control of everything.

HP said: I say not even God can do that.

Your saying , in effect, that God isn't God.

Trust me, God will never receive any glory from damning men to an eternal hell that never had the slightest possibility of ending up anywhere else.

In your opinion.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom


HP said: That paints nothing short of a hideous blight upon the character of a Just God. There is not a just person alive that should not shrink in horror of such a wicked scenerio.

Romans 9: 19-23:

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

HP said: I would strongly suggest that you go back to some of that God instilled logic and wisdom you have obviously thrown aside.

I would suggest you follow your own advice.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[steaver]

We have to understand that predestination is a result of a God who could see into the future all that would take place BEFORE He made the decision to create man in His own image.

This must include the knowledge of who would repent and who would not. We would love to have this knowledge shown to us, maybe written accross the forehead, sure would make witnessing a lot easier, but God wants all witnessed to, even those He knows will not repent. Even those who He endures with much longsuffering.

God Bless!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dustin: Paul is speaking to believers, the body of Christ, not all of mankind. Read it, it's there.

HP: What literary device so determines the context that when one is speaking to believers he cannot make a universal statement concerning faith?

Let’s say I am a pastor in the closed company of believers. I make a statement that Christ died for all. Are you to tell me that because I was in the company of only believers, and was addressing them alone, that I cannot make a universal statement to them that includes every man women and child that has ever lived? Think about the position you have taken carefully Dustin.

HP: What gives one the right to inject ‘saving’ into the text? It simply states faith, not ‘saving faith.’

Dustin: In the book of James, it says that even demons believe in God and tremble. In the Gospels, the demons know who Christ is, they confess he is the Son of God, but that confession doesn't save them. They have a sort of faith but not saving faith. I'm saying, for the sake of understanding, that there is a difference between faith that saves and faith that doesn't. Disagreeing with this has no point in this debate whatsoever. It's not addressing anything and it is mere complaining.

HP: You appear to me as making my point. Every reference to faith does not infer saving faith. The text in question says absolutely nothing about ‘saving faith.’ It simply says ‘faith.’ You extrapolate faith to mean ‘saving faith’ when it cannot be reasonably done. How can one receive a 'measure of' saving faith?? Are we saved in 'measure?' I would thinnk that either we are saved or we are not.

I will address the passage in Romans you quoted in another thread entitled "Does God Predestinate the Damned?"

 

[Dustin]

HP said: What literary device so determines the context that when one is speaking to believers he cannot make a universal statement concerning faith?

Because Paul says "the body of Christ" and not "the every person in world." Paul uses language that would be exclusive to those who are believers in Christ.

HP said: Let’s say I am a pastor in the closed company of believers. I make a statement that Christ died for all. Are you to tell me that because I was in the company of only believers, and was addressing them alone, that I cannot make a universal statement to them that includes every man women and child that has ever lived? Think about the position you have taken carefully Dustin.

I'd say no, because not every single man woman and child that has ever lived is saved. You'd be lying to them. It'd be more accurate to say that Christ died for all of "us" which is what Paul is saying in Romans 12. Which is why Paul uses that language, he is speaking to believers.



HP said: You appear to me as making my point. Every reference to faith does not infer saving faith. The text in question says absolutely nothing about ‘saving faith.’ It simply says ‘faith.’ You extrapolate faith to mean ‘saving faith’ when it cannot be reasonably done. How can one receive a 'measure of' saving faith?? Are we saved in 'measure?' I would thinnk that either we are saved or we are not.

I told you, I'm not going to pursue this side argument further, it only clouds the issue. I'm sorry I responded to it in the first place. Make a new thread if you want other's opinions but I'm not going to participate.

HP said: I will address the passage in Romans you quoted in another thread entitled "Does God Predestinate the Damned?"


Why not make a thread for Proverbs 16:4 that I posted as well? Make one for Deuteronomy 7 and Ephesians 1 while you're at it.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin