What is Primitivism?

Bro. Robert

My 3 cents (inflation) on your list.

At least a strong preference for the KJV.

I rarely hear this in the churches among whom I travel. I suppose we all know this is what we believe and it is a bit tiresome to hear it week after week.

Believe it or not, when I was ordained there were a couple of fellows who objected because I had a college education -- not a religious college education either -- but they were in a severe minority of the group assembled for the occasion. They would have had a "fit" had they known I had studied Biblical Greek.

I think this area is the weak area about primitivists groups. Ministers often get a couple of topics in their head and that is all you ever hear from them.

That said, I know a few men who are quite elderly and barely literate, who can expound, with power of conviction and rhetoric, on various theological topics.

I think the author misses some of the point on this one. It isn't strictly an opposition to missions, but rather an opposition to mission boards separate from the local church.

Perhaps one of the most appealing things about primitivist bodies,

Shouting is not as common as it once was, but still exists. There was quite a bit of it this weekend at our associational session. Some of it is a bit tiring though, in that the same women will shout at the same point in the same minister's sermon. See comment above about some ministers rehashing the same subjects over and over. Most of the shouting happens when someone is speaking of heaven and wanting to go on, at least in my experience.

Shouting is almost an exclusive thing among women. Many of the men are gathered together in a "that's right" knot.

On the other hand, perhaps I am too starched to appreciate it.

 

I agree with everthing Brother Jeff said and would like to add something on number six. I am not against mission if it, is done for the right reasons. If the main mission of the missionaries was to go over to these underdeveloped and help them to a better life I wouldn't mind.

Unfortunately that is not the case as we have to dangle the gospel carrot before we will help them. I feel more would be accomplished if we would help the people first and let them get to know the workings of the christian by their deeds. The scriptures state by their fruits ye shall know them. If I am out of line set me straight. We are told only to feed sheep... God is the only one that makes them.

I while back I was reading Griffins History of The Mississippi Primitive Baptist. I can't quote from it as I lost the book when we moved. One part always stuck in my mind that the observance of the writer was that those of the missionaries refused food to those hungry until they read certain portions of scripture. Dangling the gospel carrot so to speak... You don't read... You don't eat. Mind you this was written over 100 years ago but is it still going on? God only knows!

I see it all the time on TV sponsor this child if you want the child to have a nice place to live... food... a good education. I have one question and I will be blunt what about those going hungry right under our nose. You know how many homeless people are in this city of San Diego and some because of no fault of their own. How many children?... If I had any money to give it would stay right here!... Didn't mean to get off the topic... Help your own first and then help others. Those who you help would also help when they are able in any capacity!... Brother Glen

[ September 16, 2002, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Dear Bro glen,

I don't think you went off topic, missions is an important issue on which Baptists have varying views.

I know some Baptists don't support the modern missions movement because they believe the "Great Commission" was given to the original disciples only.

Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I would like to ask you a couple of questions rather than ask someone who is not a Primitive Baptist. You may not want to answer publicly and I'll understand, but could you email me then?
It is important to me.

I am genuinely interested to know and I'm not going to try to refute anything you say.

Here are my questions:
Was not the ordinance of baptism given in the Great Commission? Why then do we baptise in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost if there are no more apostles to whom the Great Commission was given?
We could also say that the ordinance of the Lord's Supper was given only to the Apostles.

Are there other reasons why some Baptists don't support modern missions apart from the ones you have already given?

HankD

 

Hank

I'll give it a stab.

Most Primitive Baptists would say that the Great Commission was given to the apostles and thier descendants, i.e., the clergy rather than to the church.

The primary reason for opposition to missionary societies, however, is money, and how it is used. I think you can understand why this is if you look at the "ministries" of folks like Jim Bakker and Creflo Dollar. Jesus said "Go into all the world,..." not send into all the world. There is a difference.

DId that help at all?

Jeff

 

Hank D sometime I speak in a blunt manner but agree with everything Elder Jeff Weaver said... He's the preacher not me!... Where does the money really go?... Sorry Brother Jeff I let the preacher cat out of the bag... ... Are we still brothers?... Brother Glen

 

Thanks to both of you!

HankD

 

Bro. R.

Thanks for the follow-up. It explains some things to me -- especially the part about his background.

I don't know many of the United Baptist folks, but I do know considerable numbers of Old Regulars.

I wish those folks (Old Regulars) would circulate more. I think their manner of doing things would have an appeal to those who could accept their theology (a milder-Calvinism than Primitive Baptists). Their services are beautiful, at least to my way of thinking.

Jeff.

 

Bump.

Bro. Robert

FYI. I met Howard Dorgan yesterday, and had some discussions with him on some of these issues. I also dug up Children of a Happy God and reread some of his book. To the point -- would you have some definitive source for all groups you would call primitivists? If not, can we work on putting such a thing together?

Hope all is well in Texas. Rainy, drizzly day here in Southwest Virginia. Skipped meeting this weekend - fell down and mangled myself up, and it is difficult to sit in any position for long.

Jeff.

 

Well, Dr. Bob, from all I have seen on this board, I could ask the same question about IFBs SBCs, etc.

When I was a kid, sprout, youngster, little person, we took my grandmother to Primitive Baptist services once a month, and the rest of the time attended a Southern Baptist Church about a mile from where we lived. I joined this SBC church when I was very young, 7 years old IIRC. Obviously I knew very little, if any thing about theology at the time, but it seemed to be the thing to do. As I grew older, I actually started studying scripture, and in fact every book I could get my grubby hands around. I discovered that my understanding of scripture was considerably different from the semi-Arminian theology being espoused by this particular SBC church. At that point in my life, at age 18 or so, I sat out to find a church that matched my understanding of scripture, or as close as I could find. I attended for varying periods of time, from one visit to several months, every variant of church in the area in which I lived.

There were two major points which impressed my mind from study -- that God had an active will, and that God's will was sovreign. I had not read John Calvin at that time, and had never even heard of Jacob Arminus. So, off on my quest I went, and about the same time started college -- State University. Being of a curious nature, I took a little bit of everything, and took the requisite philosophy classes, and had the great fortune of meeting a Calvinistic Methodist minister and Univeristy professor -- Richard Allen Humphrey. (Yes I realized Methodism and Calvinism don't usually go together).

Rich never suggested anything, but was honest and open explaining this and that that troubled my youthful mind. By and by I made a visit to my grandmother's church, to which I hadn't been in many years except for funerals. The pastor there, who didn't know me from Adam's housecat at that time, knew me in ways that surprised me. He told me that he knew I had felt a call to preach -- which was true but I had admitted to only a couple of people at that time.

The services were beautiful to my mind. The building was plain, the singing was doleful, the folks were in overalls and plain dresses. The churchyard was full of pickup trucks and 20 year old cars. But it was beautiful. Here were folks who held the same notion of what God is, and what his will was that I did. After about a year of attending and asking questions, I asked for a home, and they received me. Two weeks later I was baptized in the closest river, had to break out the ice to get there, but felt no cold, no water in the nose, it was a perfectly comfortable thing to do. The next meeting time, I was sitting in my seat, minding my own business, when they called on me to come and make a few remarks. A year later a small church without a pastor, asked my home church to ordain me, and for permission to call me as their pastor, all of which was done.

To say that I agree 100% with every aspect of what being a Primitive Baptist entails I can't do -- because our folks do some things that annoy me. To say that we are 100% doctrinally correct, I cannot, because I don't believe it. But I do believe that their/our doctrine and practice is as close as I have found to what I believe scriptures teach.

As to why others chose to join primitivist groups, each will have to speak for themselves, but I suspect that many have had a similar journey to my own. Others join because that is what is available in their communities. Others join because that is the faith of mom and dad.

I opened this reply with a rejoinder of why someone would join an IFB, SBC, etc church. The Primitivists churches are fairly doctrinally consistent. By this I mean, that most Primitive Baptist churches nationwide are going to be pretty similar. Most Separate Baptist churches nationwide are going to be pretty similar. Most Old Regular Baptists, nationwide are going to be pretty similar. To parody Forest Gump When you bite into a SBC, IFB, etc church you never know what you are going to get.

As for evangelism, I have to agree with Robert's comments above. It seems to me that there is considerable fraud or potential for fraud, in lots of these missionary activities, which has been the Primitive's principal objection to them from day one or at least since the Black Rock Declaration of 1832.

We also believe that it is the Spirit that regenerates, not the written/preached gospel. We believe that when regeneration occurs, the subject of grace will seek the written/preached gospel.

I can go on for a week or two, but hopefully this gets to the heart of the question as it pertains to me. Others will have to answer for themselves.

Regards
Jeff

 

Bro. R.

I am answering apart from the reply to Dr. B. so as not to get lost in the crowd as it were.

I am thinking of something along the lines of defining the various Primitivist sub-denominations, if possible. For example, I know of the Separate Baptists, and that they have a General Association, but not all Separate Baptists are part of the umbrella group. Who are they any what is the difference in the two. Is the difference theological or political.

I am fairly well aware of the factions of Primitive Baptists and would list them in the following way (always subject to revision).

Primitive Baptists (Principally European Descent)

I. Regular (Old Line) Primitive Baptists
A. Old Line Primitive Baptists
1. Tolerant of Secret socities
2. Intolerant of Secret Socities
B. Semi-Progessive Primitive Baptists
C. Political fragments
2. Absoultue Predestinarian Primitive Baptits
A. Political fragments
1. Allied with the Signs of the Times
2. Allied with Zion's Landmark
3. Allied with The Remnant.
B. The Canadian fragments
3. Progessive Primitive Baptists
A. The Usual suspects
B. Eastern District Primitive Baptist Association
4. Primitive Baptists Universalists
A. Main Faction
B. Elkhorn Association #2
C. Those who believe that the resurrection is strictly a spiritual affair.
5. Spiritual resurrectionists Primitive Baptists

Primitive Baptists (Principally African Descent)

1. Regular (Old Line) Groups.
2. Absoulte Predestinarn Groups.
3. Progressive Groups.
A. National Primitive Baptist Convention
B. Progressive Primitive Baptist fragments.

One could, I suppose define the doctrinal positions of each, or at least the variant from the main (commonly agreed upon points of doctrine).

I am familiar with Elmer Clark's work. I would envision a more detailed update on his work on the Baptists. Hopefully that makes some sense.

Jeff

[ October 21, 2002, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]