What is the Biblical def. of Works

[Timtoolman]

I am perplex by the calvinist use of works. The idea the recieving a gift from someone that in order to recieve it you must preform a work. In other words the work is the recieving. That somehow the praise goes to the one recieving and not the one who purchased or made the gift.
I would say works would be anything that you give credit to your salvation other then God or the work of the cross. For instance if someone walked the aisle to get saved and someone accuses them of trying to be saved by works when in that person's heart he gives no credit to his walking the aisld. Instead declares it is solely the work of Christ on the cross. Then a calvinist comes along and says no, you are claiming your walk down the aisle saves you. That is the kind of arguement I feel I am in with calvinist. One of the strawmen I think they continue to build and then tear down.
Any thoughts? (Loaded question)

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Timtoolman;
What ever you do is don't let them wear you down. Salvation depends on a decision and that decision is all through the Bible.
Proof of the freewill position;
Dute.30:19, Mat.22:2-14, Proverbs 1:28 Eze.18:31-32, Eze 33:11, Act 3:19 Hos. 14:1 Dan 9:13 Jer 31:18, Josh. 24:15 Proverbs 3:31 Isa. 56:4.
My Favorite is this one;
Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

Tim,
Anything that doesn't agree with the Calvinist position of Election, is a "work".

 

[Southern]

Tim,
Look at my first post in the "Respector of Person" Forum to get my take on it.

May God Bless Us Both Bro,
In Christ

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Southern:
Tim,
Look at my first post in the "Respector of Person" Forum to get my take on it.

May God Bless Us Both Bro,
In Christ

Southern, you are still saying choice is a work to salvation. Right? But if God provided His son, provided the work for man to believe, again sending His Son to die. Also giving us the HS, The Bible, and nature declaring His glory is it not easy to say that my choice has nothing to do with salvation? That it is finished product at the cross. If God had not done the work, the cross, what could I choose, what could I believe in. I could not will myself to not sin or back to fellowship with God. It was his choice to provide salvation and totally up to Him.
If I am standing inside the empire state building can I look around and say "because I have chosen to come into the building I can claim part of the praise for the building of it". Because I have accepted Christ, can I also say that I took part of salvation. Can I say that I helped pay for sin. I don't believe so. I do not count myself as part of the work of the cross because I am in HIM. He did the work at the cross, finished, completed. Just like the empire state buildind g was built long ago and I would be silly to claim to be part of it because I chose to go into it.

Tim

 

[Southern]

Tim,

Here is the relevant quote:

"The one who recieved Christ must not have been as hard, rebellious, or captive as the one who rejected... If belief arises from the unregenerate heart and distinguishes one man from another while all had the same natural or bestowed capacity, then the exercising of that capacity must be better than not exercixing it. If it is better (and arises from a capability of the unregenerate), then the believer has contributed to his own salvation."


- Quote from "By His Grace and For His Glory: A Historical, Theological, and Practical Study of the Doctrines of Grace in Baptist Life".

Conclusion- What I am saying is that God did not make the difference in your salvation between you and others who are still lost, you did. Rather, I can't say that the difference between me and other unbelievers is because of anything done by or through me, but have to give God all my praise. When someone asks me "Who maketh thee to differ from another?" (I Cor. 4:7), I say God. Yet you cannot say this, since God is trying to save everyone and the difference between you and the ones who are still lost is well... You. Not God.

In Christ

P.S. Cool Nickname, don't think I have seen you around here. You'll probably see me more around the first of the year.

Another truth is also illustrated by Paul's procedure, namely, that pride is always inconsistent with the true doctrine of the gospel. You may use this test concerning any preaching, or teaching that you meet with: if it legitimately and logically leads a man to boast of himself, it is not true. -C.H. Spurgeon

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Southern:
Tim,

Here is the relevant quote:

"The one who recieved Christ must not have been as hard, rebellious, or captive as the one who rejected... If belief arises from the unregenerate heart and distinguishes one man from another while all had the same natural or bestowed capacity, then the exercising of that capacity must be better than not exercixing it. If it is better (and arises from a capability of the unregenerate), then the believer has contributed to his own salvation."


- Quote from "By His Grace and For His Glory: A Historical, Theological, and Practical Study of the Doctrines of Grace in Baptist Life".

Conclusion- What I am saying is that God did not make the difference in your salvation between you and people who are still lost, you did. Rather I can't say that the difference between me and other unbelievers is because of anything done by or through me but God. When someone asks me "Who maketh thee to differ from another?" (I Cor. 4:7) I say God. Yet you cannot say this since God is trying to save everyone and the difference between you and the ones who are still lost is well... You. Not God.

In Christ

P.S. Cool Nickname, don't think I have seen you around here. You'll probably see me more around the first of the year.

Can we not conclude from scriptures that a person who rejects Christ becomes harden? I think we are all on equal ground here.
And the other issue is that God certianly did make the difference, in the fact He did all the work for salvation and after salvation to help live a rightoues life.
What if we look at salvation as a finished watch. If I chose to buy the watch or not. Rather I like it or not does that in fact still give me any of the glory for the watch being? I can take no credit for it. Salvation was finished at the cross. It is a done deal. Whatever I do cannot change it or do away with it. Finished work by God and God alone. My choices will not change that. Yes?

Tim

 

[Southern]

Can we not conclude from scriptures that a person who rejects Christ becomes harden? I think we are all on equal ground here.

The difference is not why men go to hell, but why any go to heaven.In your view, the reason you are not going to hell and others are is not God, He is trying to save them, the difference was made by you.

And the other issue is that God certianly did make the difference, in the fact He did all the work for salvation and after salvation to help live a rightoues life.

This is inconsistent with your view. If God is trying to save all people, why are you saved and others are not? Is the difference really God? or you?... To ask the question is to answer it.

In Christ

 

[johnp.]

What ever you do is don't let them wear you down.

Brilliant ILUVLIGHT! My sentiments exactly!

Timtoolman.

Because I have accepted Christ, can I also say that I took part of salvation. Can I say that I helped pay for sin.

No, you say that He did not do it all. That He enabled you to chose to live, how a dead man can chose anything is interesting.

He is my Saviour.

I am perplex by the calvinist use of works. The idea the recieving a gift from someone that in order to recieve it you must preform a work. In other words the work is the recieving.

JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

It's a work Jesus said.

Just like the empire state buildind was built long ago and I would be silly to claim to be part of it because I chose to go into it.

You are talking about things. Do you think you can walk into the King of the Universe any time the fancy takes you? As if He were a building?
Faith is spiritual and we were dead. The spiritual things of God are understood with the spirit. Your spirit was dead.
It is bad enough to compare Him to us but to compare Him to bricks and mortar just shows how unspiritual we are even when saved.

He made us to be alive. He included us in Christ. The Author and perfecter of our faith. Heb 12:2.

johnp.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Southern:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Can we not conclude from scriptures that a person who rejects Christ becomes harden? I think we are all on equal ground here.

The difference is not why men go to hell, but why any go to heaven.In your view, the reason you are not going to hell and others are is not God, He is trying to save them, the difference was made by you.

And the other issue is that God certianly did make the difference, in the fact He did all the work for salvation and after salvation to help live a rightoues life.

This is inconsistent with your view. If God is trying to save all people, why are you saved and others are not? Is the difference really God? or you?... To ask the question is to answer it.

In Christ </font>[/QUOTE]No, agian I don't see it that way. My decision does not alter the work of the Cross. That is the main Pt. I could not choose God if He did not provide a way. Whether I choose too accept Christ or not, which decision would alter the work of salvation. Would it disappear for others, or become null? No it is finished! My choice does NOT, I SAY DOES NOT affect or change salvation or the fact that God and God alone provided it!

Tim

 

[Southern]

Tim,
Let me ask again:

If God is trying to save all people, why are you saved and others are not? Is the difference really God? or you?... To ask the question is to answer it.

In Christ

 

[Timtoolman]

Timtoolman.

Because I have accepted Christ, can I also say that I took part of salvation. Can I say that I helped pay for sin.

No, you say that He did not do it all. That He enabled you to chose to live, how a dead man can chose anything is interesting.


Tim:.... I said God did and has finished the work of the cross at the cross. (read my post) I said that choice does not in anyway alter salvation. Because it was done and finished by God. I do not accept you def of dead. I used adam and eve before and no one refuted it. They could not please God yet they understood Him, after the fall, and talked with Him. HOw your calvinistic def. of dead can allow this to happen goes on to show the sillyness of trying to back a teaching of a man.

He is my Saviour.

I am perplex by the calvinist use of works. The idea the recieving a gift from someone that in order to recieve it you must preform a work. In other words the work is the recieving.

JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

It's a work Jesus said.


TIM:......IT IS A WORK DONE BY HIM! If you cannot respond honestly and sincerly to my questions then why bother John. I said in my earlier post it was a work of God and Him alone. However calvinist are trying to make accepting a work that contributes to salvation. Not me!

Just like the empire state buildind was built long ago and I would be silly to claim to be part of it because I chose to go into it.

You are talking about things. Do you think you can walk into the King of the Universe any time the fancy takes you? As if He were a building?
Faith is spiritual and we were dead. The spiritual things of God are understood with the spirit. Your spirit was dead.
It is bad enough to compare Him to us but to compare Him to bricks and mortar just shows how unspiritual we are even when saved.


Tim:...... Again John you avoid the question. I was using a principle and you certainly can imply the principal that I can take no glory in either because of a choice I have made. You John are the only one in the last 5 or 6 months since I have been dealing with this topic here,at work and among friends who has not understood that principal I was trying to make. Maybe it is a honest misunderstanding but you just did not answer the question.


IN Christ,
Tim

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Southern:
Tim,
Let me ask again:

If God is trying to save all people, why are you saved and others are not? Is the difference really God? or you?... To ask the question is to answer it.

In Christ

Well what does the scriptures say:

Jn 1:29 a sacrifice for the whole world.
Jn 3:16-17 ..so love the WHOLE world.
jn 12:47....not to judge the world but to save the world.

I jn 2:2 ....not only for our sins but for the sind of the whole world.
And many others.

Lets not get off topic though Southern. HOw does choice possiably get any credit for accepting a work already done. That is the question. Who's def other then calvinist would claim (like all not meaning all) that accepting is a work. It is rediculus and it really goes to show (IMHO) how hard calvinist go to change meanings and context to shore up the teachings of a man called John Calvin.

 

[Southern]

Tim,
If God is trying to save everyone, who made the difference between you and those who are not saved? Who made the difference between you and your neighbor?

If God is trying to save everyone, then it was not God who made the difference, but you. You made the difference between you and every other lost person. You cannot say that God is the reason that you are saved in contrast to the lost, For He is trying to save everybody. So you can't thank Him for the difference, you can only thank yourself because "you" made the difference. How can you escape this conclusion?

Conclusion: Who made you to differ from another (1 Cor. 4:7)?
The only possible conclusion is... You.

In Christ

Another truth is also illustrated by Paul's procedure, namely, that pride is always inconsistent with the true doctrine of the gospel. You may use this test concerning any preaching, or teaching that you meet with: if it legitimately and logically leads a man to boast of himself, it is not true. -C.H. Spurgeon

P.S. There are forums on some of those verses (I John 2:2;John 3:16). If you think they teach the man enthroning doctrines of Arminianism, why don't you participate or start a forum on those specific verses?

[ December 13, 2004, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Southern ]

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Southern:
Tim,
If God is trying to save everyone, who made the difference between you and those who are not saved? Who made the difference between you and your neighbor?

If God is trying to save everyone, then it was not God who made the difference, but you. You made the difference between you and every other lost person. You cannot say that God is the reason that you are saved in contrast to the lost, For He is trying to save everybody. So you can't thank Him for the difference, you can only thank yourself because "you" made the difference. How can you escape this conclusion?

Conclusion: Who made you to differ from another (1 Cor. 4:7)?
The only possible conclusion is... You.

In Christ

Another truth is also illustrated by Paul's procedure, namely, that pride is always inconsistent with the true doctrine of the gospel. You may use this test concerning any preaching, or teaching that you meet with: if it legitimately and logically leads a man to boast of himself, it is not true. -C.H. Spurgeon

I answered your question once on whether God wants to save everyone or desires if you will. And have stated they I do not boast or rely on my choice concerning salvation. Spurgeon was a great preacher but just a man also. I could say that spurgeon was full of pride to preach the gospel. God does not need him but has chosen to use -preaching to reach the lost. That does not make spurgeon prideful just following God's word. I do not contribute choice as something I did to make salvation possiable. It is not a pride issue with me as is not the case I believe with most my saved brothers and sisters. I think it is a strawman contrived by calvinist. I do not know any who contribute a decision made as a contrabution to salvation. God says "decide this day who you will follow". I am following Him. That is His word. You may not agree with this but if I tell you from my heart that I do not give any glory or praise (and I have explain quit clearly why not) to my decision accounting for the WORK of The cross then why doubt me or say I am prideful? That is the type of strawman (and I know I bring it up continuely but that is how I feel I deal with calvinist most of the time. They do not listen but bumble on ahead with a strawman that does not even address what I am saying) that I have to fight with instead of having an honest debate with my calvinist brothers.

Tim

 

[Southern]

Tim,
I am not saying that you "do" boast. I am pointing out that "your" decision set you apart from all other lost people. It is something done by "you" that caused you to differ from others (1 Cor. 4:7). I have to say that God caused me to differ from others.

The reason that you are saved and others are not is "not" because of God, Tim, in your view. He is trying to save everyone. It is because of "you". You could say that you were more "pliable" than others. Not as hard to get to. As I quoted earlier:

"The one who recieved Christ must not have been as hard, rebellious, or captive as the one who rejected... If belief arises from the unregenerate heart and distinguishes one man from another while all had the same natural or bestowed capacity, then the exercising of that capacity must be better than not exercixing it. If it is better (and arises from a capability of the unregenerate), then the believer has contributed to his own salvation."


- Quote from "By His Grace and For His Glory: A Historical, Theological, and Practical Study of the Doctrines of Grace in Baptist Life".

Conclusion- You might not like this, but this is what you belief leads to.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Southern:
Tim,
I am not saying that you "do" boast. I am pointing out that "your" decision set you apart from all other lost people. It is something done by "you" that caused you to differ from others (1 Cor. 4:7). I have to say that God caused me to differ from others.

The reason that you are saved and others are not is "not" because of God, Tim, in your view. He is trying to save everyone. It is because of "you". You could say that you were more "pliable" than others. Not as hard to get to. As I quoted earlier:

"The one who recieved Christ must not have been as hard, rebellious, or captive as the one who rejected... If belief arises from the unregenerate heart and distinguishes one man from another while all had the same natural or bestowed capacity, then the exercising of that capacity must be better than not exercixing it. If it is better (and arises from a capability of the unregenerate), then the believer has contributed to his own salvation."


- Quote from "By His Grace and For His Glory: A Historical, Theological, and Practical Study of the Doctrines of Grace in Baptist Life".

Conclusion- You might not like this, but this is what you belief leads to.

I understand what you mean. I think we all have the ability to recieve the gospel. There is no difference. Rejection of the HS does lead to hardening but are we all on common ground when we first hear the gospel. I believe so.
It is not a matter of taking God's glory away. He did not need to save any of us. He does not need any of us for our money, our preaching etc but He still ask us to give and to preach the gospel. Does that make Him a weak God. No, it is simply how, in His wisedom, He has chosen to do things. We can pt to many things and say that makes God weak but we know He is not. So if He chose Moses to led Isr. out of eygpt does that mean we should say He is a weak God. No. We can twist things by using the claims that God is all knowing, all powerful etc but if He choses to go a certtain way or use a cettian person then that is Him. We should not question it. However if it is immoral or against God's character that is another matter.

In Christ
Tim

 

[lets_reason_toghether]

Timtoolman


The scripture you used from John 12:47 without being so direct, you didn't look at the context at all...

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

now there are two people groups..

a:those that hear, which shows evidence of already being born again...

JOhn 8:47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

and beleive not (hasn't beleived but because of the new birth he can't deny the person of Christ but many christtians "beleive not" in the sense of the testimony or the work of Christ.

Then they are people who are not going to be saved. non-elect..

they reject the person of Christ and they receive not His words because they are not born of God. and never will be.

There are two people groups the world of the elect meaning the ones that God loves out of every kindred, tribe, tounge and people.

BUt to beconsistent, the salvation is substitionary all those that are born again were bought legally by the blood of Christ. and that is why they are not judged, because Christ was made to sin for them and God can't judge the same person Christ.

2 people groups once is saved by Grace one is not.

hope this helps..

Brother Larry

 

[Southern]

Tim,
I think you get my point. You are the one that "makes you to differ" from unbelievers, not God. The reason you can look at other unbelievers and say that you are differnt lies in what you "decided" to do. On the other hand, I can only point to God and give Him all the glory and praise.

As for your statement:

I think we all have the ability to recieve the gospel.

Jesus said the opposite:
"No man can come to me..." (John 6:44)

All men lack this ability.

In Christ

 

[lets_reason_toghether]

Timtoolman,

john 3:16

You said whosoever will, I will say AMEN To that but without reading John 5,8, and 10 I might beleive this is universal. It is but only to spiritual isreal. Jesus is speaking to nicodemus a Master and he undestands that God is for the Jews but Christ is stating that He is for all of His people out of every kindred, tribe, tounge, and people.

If you numbers chapeter 29. You will read about the serpent, Now the looketh on the serpant was to become an isrealite? no was it to be a healed isrealite? yes.. we are spritual irealits by birth and after that birth we are and somtimes bitten by the judgment of our sins and the answer of healing is Jesus Christ. Who is full of pity, love and power.

But in so certain terms did can beleiveing give life, believing is an evidence of life. And this evidence gives one great cause to rejoice becuase it is an eveidence Christ paid your sin debt and you were chosen in the everlasting covenant of Grace before the world began and nothing will ever pluck you out of the father's hadn. This verse is an assurance verse. Not a how to get into Christ, there is only one way to be in Christ and that is to be chosen in Him.

So the whosoever will is whosoever has the capcity to beleive and all men do not.

1) the will nots
2) the believe nots
3) the cannots

Now Christ has all knowledge which we do not and he makes these claims to differnt and specific people.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. (they haven't heard because they are not born of God (john 8:47)
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. (eveidence #2 that they are not born of God)
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (they will not come)
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. (evidence #3 of them not being Children of God)

The beleive not (they are not covenant eternal sheep)

john 10:26-30

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. NOTICE HE DIDNT SAY because you do not beleive you are not my sheep, he says because ye are not sheep ye beleive not)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (hearing denotes spiritual life)
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Cannots
2nd Thess 3:2

all men do not have faith. Faith is a gift of God.

So how can a man beleive if doesn't have the gift of faith? he cannot

Brother it is time to be greatly rejoiceing on that belives because it tells me that He is hevan bound not because of the belieft but the belief testifies so much more. The exercisng of the gift of faith is the evidence of things not seen (the spirit of God) and the substnace of things hoped for (eternal life, ti 1:2)

I have great comfort for you... JOhn 3:16 is the deliverance of perishing in this life on beleiving on Christ. it is the salvation of the saved.

rememeber John the baptist... he stopped beliveing and sent his disciples to ask if Christ was He. Christ said go tell him again....Believeing is for the child of God no one else.

also read jOhn 17:2 and Christ doesn't pray for the world... there is more than one world spoken of in the new testiment.

so the Gospel is not universal... go preach the Gospel to every creature Mark 16:15 (new creatures in Christ 2nd Cor 5:17, Rom 8:7-12)

Also acrs 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent

man that is dead in tresspasses and in sins doesn't fear God (rom 3:11-18) but those who so show evidenc of SPiritual life. and this word (not work) of salvation is for YOU.

Blow the Gospel trumpet that HIs children may know they are redeemed...

Is 40: 1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD’S hand double for all her sins.

the difference maker is not the sinner but the Savior.

brother larry