What is the definition and scope of God's Sovereignty?

[HanSola2000]

Ha! You missed my point. Calvinists do not allow God to be "sovereign" as revealed in the Scriptures. They have their own ideas of what it is, and then try to ram the Bible into it.

Free-will is not a Biblical principle? Really?

"Whosoever will" is not in the Bible? The phrase "of his own voluntary will" is not in the Bible. Guess again!

 

[johnp.]

Hello HanSola.

"Whosoever will" is not in the Bible? The phrase "of his own voluntary will" is not in the Bible. Guess again!

I don't know about the Ha! or exactly what you mean but if I may add some scripture: It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 9:16.

Free will is where then in scripture? There is no such principle. Free will is an invention and to do with the Twilight Zone. God is Sovereign.

john.

 

[King James Bond]

Someone on this board posted;

In fact as James says "LET NNE Say when he is tempted to sin that GOD is the cause of this".

God DOES NOT tempt NEITHER CAN He be tempted James 1.

So what happened to the free-will theory? Where is a little more of the portion of the Word of God from James 1? I will post it;

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Let me guess and say that I would be willing to bet big money that every person on this board has sinned. I bet as they live they will struggle with sin. Sounds like the hearts of people are with evil desire. Why call evil desire freedom? Freedom from what? Good?

And there are some that would call that free-will? Sounds like a bondage of sorts to me. Sounds like the nature of people is FALLEN and not free at all!

Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth , that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

I would say don't be deceived my Christian family. If anything good is in you, you can be certain that it is from your Father above and not of your will. If you are born again it most certainly is because He chose to give you new birth. Not of the will of man but of God.

And why call Me good? Only God is good!

Regards, KJB

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
Someone (BobRyan) on this board posted;

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In fact as James says "LET NNE Say when he is tempted to sin that GOD is the cause of this".

God DOES NOT tempt NEITHER CAN He be tempted James 1.

So what happened to the free-will theory?
</font>[/QUOTE]It was upheld by observing that GOD is not the author of sin.

KJB

Where is a little more of the portion of the Word of God from James 1? I will post it;

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

"Yep" - that is how we make the point that GOD is NOT the AUTHOR of sin.

He is not MAKING people sin.

He is not MAKING sin.

He is not stuck "not knowing the future if He does not MAKE everyone do what they are doing".

RATHER the sin of EACH person is attributed to INDIVIDUAL issues - not attributed to the Calivnist idea of "I had not choice or SOMEONE MADE me do it"

James 1
but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

You have to ENTICE the person with CHOICE - you don't simply "MAKE him sin".

KJB
Let me guess and say that I would be willing to bet big money that every person on this board has sinned.

That does NOT make God the author of sin.

Which was "the point" being addressed as you may recall.

And the sinful nature is common to ALL.

The question is AFTER one becomes a Christian - are we FREE to continue to CHOOSE to sin and also FREE to CHOOSE the "way of escapte" of 1Cor 10 that God "is FAITHFUIL to provide".

And that - is how the Arminian system works!

The Arminian system never insists that the lost sinner is "FREE" to not sin on his own without the new birth.

Dumping that myth of Calvinism (actually a strawman Calvinism likes to imagine FOR Arminians) -- we get back to the actual point - GOD is NOT the Author of sin.

And the MOTIVATION that we see in places like 1Cor 10 where "GOD PROVIDES the WAY of escape" is one for CHOICE - for CHOOSING to TAKE that WAY of Escape.

No sense in continually seeking some way to either make God the author of sin or to argue that he is failing WHEN HE chooses to create Free will!

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[AresMan]

King James Bond said:

Let me guess and say that I would be willing to bet big money that every person on this board has sinned. I bet as they live they will struggle with sin. Sounds like the hearts of people are with evil desire. Why call evil desire freedom? Freedom from what? Good?

And there are some that would call that free-will? Sounds like a bondage of sorts to me. Sounds like the nature of people is FALLEN and not free at all!

I don't think you understand what advocates of the concept of "free will" mean by that term. It is more or less a neutral term. It does not necessarily mean "good freedom" or "bad freedom".

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

You can choose one or the other. You can choose to be a servant of sin unto death or to be a servant of Christ unto righteousness. Either way, you are still in bondage and completely under subjection to something. I would guess the "freedom" here is simply the choice. Any finite created being will always be in bondage to something.

II Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
17 And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments;
18 Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
19 But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.
21 And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house?
22 And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.

This is God's Sovereignty! God is the absolute infinite Creator and Authority. He says "You do this--I will do this; You do that--I will do that." There is no thwarting and there are no loopholes. Man's so-called "free will" cannot be defined without God's Sovereignty, for there could be no choice without God's Sovereign decree. Who can escape the Sovereignty of God? NNE!

 

[Timtoolman]

JohnP your theology has made God the author of sin. NO ands, ifs or butts. You have changed a Holy God into a unholy god. Period.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello HanSola.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Whosoever will" is not in the Bible? The phrase "of his own voluntary will" is not in the Bible. Guess again!

I don't know about the Ha! or exactly what you mean but if I may add some scripture: It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 9:16.

Free will is where then in scripture? There is no such principle. Free will is an invention and to do with the Twilight Zone. God is Sovereign.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Free will is declared through out the Bible and is saturated too such an extent, that to say otherwise is to anounce to the world what a fool is.

From the very start of Adeam and Eve to Isreal, His diesciples who disobeyed. Disaobeyed,.. HIS WILL as spoken directly to many of them even! However you have already stated that God is the author of sin. So if I ask, did God tell Adam and Eve not to eat That all He was doing was only setting up sin? YOu would say, yep. !!!??

 

[johnp.]

Hello Timtoolman.

JohnP your theology has made God the author of sin. NO ands, ifs or butts. You have changed a Holy God into a unholy god. Period.

God is the Author of sin. Are you saying He cannot be?

Free will is declared through out the Bible and is saturated too such an extent, that to say otherwise is to anounce to the world what a fool is.

A fool is someone who does not bow the knee to God. Before you call me a fool why don't you back it with scripture seeing as you think 'free will' is saturating the scriptures. Your lack of scripture shows you have nothing.

john.

 

[webdog]

God is the Author of sin. Are you saying He cannot be?

No, HE SAYS IT!! You really are a "black eye" for calvinism. Why isn't anyone like whatever, whetstone, pastor larry, jarthur backing you on this heretical view?

Unfortunately, I do agree with you, Johnp. Calvinism by default is what you claim: God being the author of sin. That's why calvinism is a false doctrine. The 5 petals of the TULIP stand and fall together.

 

[johnp.]

Hello webdog.

No, HE SAYS IT!!

If you mean me I do. God is the Author of sin God is Sovereign.

You really are a "black eye" for calvinism.

I am? Cool. I think Calvinists can take it.

Why isn't anyone like whatever, whetstone, pastor larry, jarthur backing you on this heretical view?

They don't agree with me why do you ask?

Unfortunately, I do agree with you, Johnp.

Arminians always do.

Calvinism by default is what you claim:

Just the thought that I might think like an Arminian sends shudders down my spine but you have hit the nail on the head.

God being the author of sin.

God is Sovereign.

The 5 petals of the TULIP stand and fall together.

She will never wilt.

john.

 

[AresMan]

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

johnp., could you please exegete this for me.

 

[AresMan]

You know, johnp, I could take your same logic and say that if you believe that Jesus (being God Himself) took on literal flesh and actually experienced human hunger (Mt. 4:2), that you are saying that God is not Sovereign.

 

[Timtoolman]

So true AresMan, seems johnp has fool in mouth problem. He has made some brash statements here without support. He's done, turn him over! grin.

Now on the other hand I agree with KJB that God is in control of all but He does not cause, intiate or make anyone too sin. That is blastphe

Tim

 

[johnp.]

Hello AresMan.

You know, johnp, I could take your same logic and say that if you believe that Jesus (being God Himself) took on literal flesh and actually experienced human hunger (Mt. 4:2), that you are saying that God is not Sovereign.

Nothing happened to Jesus that Jesus had not commanded should happen in the eternal counsel of God.
He was not captured and hung He was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Acts 2:23.

You are Trinitarian are you?

johnp., could you please exegete this for me.

Matthew 23:37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I get back tomorrow with this it's time for bed.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Timtoolman.

He's done, turn him over! grin.

As my seven year old boy says to me: Bring it on man!

Now on the other hand I agree with KJB that God is in control of all but He does not cause, intiate or make anyone too sin. That is blastphe

What happened man fall of the keyboard or what?

1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you." How's that for starters?

AC 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

The crucifixtion was determined by God not man and man was the tool with which God worked His work. He caused men to nail Him to the cross. How is that?

john.

 

[AresMan]

I don't think anyone here would disagree that it was God's Sovereign plan that Jesus would die on the cross before it ever happened.
Now, why did Jesus say "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" if He (God Himself) were literally making the soldiers push the spikes through?

And by the way, have a good night's sleep.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Johnp,


I see you are holding down the fort while i have been away. Our Lord has blessed me with a great deal of work so it has been hard to get online to chat. Even though i was up at 3am this morning WORKING and it is now 9pm i wanted to post one note.

1st john, I know i owe you a reply from a tread, but I can't recall where that is. I know this...It is on this subject, and I will get to it this week...Lord willing.

2nd, (to all) I see that no one has changed sides yet..humm. Not that I thought any one would.

3rd..i wanted to say once again it is ever so amusing how Calvinist are attached for both agreeing on points and also, as you see above disagreeing. It is said that we are robots in a brained washed trance. It is said NOONE can come up with Calvinistic doctrine on the Bible alone. Yet that is what most all Calvinist say they have done and yes we do have views of our own.

4th...it is clear from other post that Johnp and I disagree on hamartiology. Others have asked why I'm not HARDED in attaching John on his views on sin. One..God always seems to keep me busy when this subject comes up. Another reason...John pays me not to. Ok that was a joke....its really Bob that pays me not to attack john.

5th..i have no 5th point.

Really looking back over this..i see no point at all. Just wanted to check in. I hope to be back soon.


In Christ...James

 

[King James Bond]

Bob,

It was upheld by observing that GOD is not the author of sin.

Bob, I just proved that people sin willingly.

RATHER the sin of EACH person is attributed to INDIVIDUAL issues - not attributed to the Calivnist idea of "I had not choice or SOMEONE MADE me do it"

Did you read the verse at all?

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

It does not prove people are free. It proves they are fallen and bound with an evil nature to sin willingly.

Bob, in all of your life and every time you ever told a lie.....did someone have to force you, or did you lie willingly?

God would not have to tempt people. Even if He was to place all types of situations in front of people with Him knowing full well they will sin....He does not tempt. People are tempted by their own evil desires! Get it?

The heart of the problem is the problem of the heart.

The human heart is not free but fallen.

Bob, please allow me not to reply to your posts anymore as a favor to me. Take the last word by all means. Thanks!

AresMan,

Romans 6 is very good;

Please read this page and let me know what you think of it. NASB

http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=romans%206;&version=49;

Later I will post on it.

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

God bless, KJB

 

[BobRyan]

It was upheld by observing that GOD is not the author of sin.

Originally posted by King James Bond:

Bob, I just proved that people sin willingly.

That is the Arminian argument from 1Cor 10 "NO temptation has overtaken you but such is common to man -- AND GOD IS FAITHFUL who will NOT allow you to be tempted BEYOND THAT WHICH YOU are able -- but will WITH the temptation provide the way of ESCAPE". 1Cor 10.

notice that Paul argues - to be overcome by sin is to be enslaved to it - as we once were apart from Christ -- Romans 6.

RATHER the sin of EACH person is attributed to INDIVIDUAL issues - not attributed to the Calivnist idea of "I had no choice or SOMEONE MADE me do it"

"NO temptation has overtaken you but SUCH as is COMMON to mankind and God IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able - but will WITH the temptation provide the way of escape" 1Cor 10

This is the FREEDOM of the new birth in Christ,

As Paul points out in Romans 6 PRIOR to that we are "enslaved" to sin.

KJB

It does not prove people are free. It proves they are fallen and bound with an evil nature to sin willingly.

Actually Paul uses the terms "OVERCOME" and "ENSLAVED" in Romans 6 to refer to the unsaved.

The unsaved is ENABLED to accept Christ but not ENABLED to live without slavery to sin UNTIL after they come to Christ.

Yes - it is really that obvious IN the text!


In Christ,

Bob

 

[AresMan]

I think both BobRyan (an Arminian) and King James Bond (a Calvinist) agree that God is not the author of sin, and that when man sins it is his own evil desires that draw him to do it (not God). It is johnp's view that God is the direct cause of absolutely every thing that ever happens (good and evil alike) that we are mainly addressing. Don't mainstream Calvinists think that this view is rather extreme? Is it something that we should attempt to correct, or is it just "well, at least he says he's Calvinist, so let him believe whatever else he wants and I don't care"? I would say that I do respect Calvinist theology and agree with much of it (however, I would call myself Free Grace), but is it unreasonable for me to be somewhat alarmed by what johnp blatently states he believes?