What is the source of faith?

What is the source of faith? This seems like the real dividing line in the Calvinism vs. Arminian debate.

We all agree that Grace is from God, but from where does faith come?

Some Arminians argue that faith is not from God, but what does the scripture say?

The Arminian who attempts to fight this battle does so in vain. For he does not fight man, but he fights the very words of God. For faith is no less than God's gift to his creation. Who could question that in light of the Biblical revelation?

The ability to see the sky, moon, stars, rivers, mountains and think to ourselves there must be someone who ordered this beautiful creation. There must be something greater than ourselves. It's our God given faith that hopes in the unseen things, and gives us that certainty that hope is true.

However, scripture's handling of faith is much different than many Calvinists are willing to acknowledge. For if in salvation faith was given to us in the same manner as grace was given; why is it that faith is always seen as man's possession. For example, when faith is spoken of in the scripture it's, "your faith," or "our faith," or "the faith of man." Never is it refered to as "His faith" or the "faith of God," as is grace. Scripture always says, "by his grace" or "the grace of God," but never refers to faith as being in God's possession. Why?

Faith is different from Grace in that God has given faith to everyone as a part of His image in them. This, I believe, is what Paul speaks of in Romans 1:18 and following when he speaks of the wrath of God being poured out upon mankind so that "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew of God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him..."

It says, "they knew God." The Bible clearly teaches that no one has seen God, for God is Spirit. How would anyone "know God" expect that they have faith he exists? Now, I'm not speaking of "saving faith" for faith in and of itself cannot save. It's only a means by which Grace is applied. Once Grace has been applied then and only then does it become "saving" and "effectual" and all the things mentioned in the epistle of James.

Faith is a universal gift to all mankind so that no man has an excuse. Like other gifts from God, we must be good stewards of it. We must apply faith just as we apply hope or love. If our faith is placed in the Lord Jesus Christ we will receive everlasting life. But, if our faith is placed in darwinism, buddism, or even atheism it is good for nothing.

So, faith is a gift from God, but the scripture clearly calls and fully expects us to place our faith in Christ. This is the "will" by which God has allowed man the responsibility to determine his own fate.

What say ye?

With Respect,
Bro. Bill

 

You are correct sir. He is the one who authors and perfects our faith in Him. Thanks for the support text.

With Respect,
Brother Bill

 

No I think you misunderstood. He is the prefection of "OUR FAITH" which is place in Him. Without Him our faith could not "abide" in Him.

You wrote: "He is the embodiment of pure faith." I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that Jesus was fully God, fully man AND FULLY FAITH? That doesn't make any sense. Or, do you mean by this that he is the perfect example of faithfulness? That makes sense. Please explain.

The writer of Hebrews is using an analogy here in 12:2, literally comparing Jesus to the writer of a book calling him the "author" and the "editior." He is the Word (logos); the very words of our faith. If you spoke to a Muslim and said, "What faith do you hold to?" They might say, "The faith written in the Koran." Of course, we know that is misdirected, misguided, dead faith. But by the defination of faith being "the substance of things hope for and the evidence of things unseen." They are still practicing a type of faith in a non-existant unseen force.

So when we say that our faith is in Christ. It doesn't mean that Jesus literally becomes faith. He is not "faith," for faith is a possession of man given by God. Faith and Christ are not one in the same as Christ and God are. You could say that Christ is the embodiment of God, in that they are one in the same, you can't say that about faith. Instead he is the object of our faith. He is the one we beleive in. He is the author and prefector of the divine book that reveals our faith. The words describe and define our faith, but scripture is clear that it is our responsiblity to place our faith in Him and his Words.

With Respect,
Bro. Bill

 

If faith is not a God given charactertic in man from birth how do we explain how tribes in the remotest parts of the world sense time began have believed in a higher unseen force. No doubt their faith is misguided, but just has Romans 1 says they "knew God" because of the eternal qualities that are revealed in his creation. The only way someone could "know God" is by the means of faith. This once again is not "saving faith" but it is a means by which Grace is applied once someone places their faith in Christ.

What say ye?

Bro. Bill

 

YOUR salvation? According to Pronounism, salvation comes from us, then. But wait. Psalm 119 suggests that salvation is God's. </font>[/QUOTE]I said faith comes from God. If you would actually read my posts you might see the arguments I'm making instead of the ones you ASSUME I am. Salvation is from God, given to man; thus, it is His plan of salvation, given to man thus becoming "your salvation." Just as faith is from God and given to man, thus becoming "your faith." Thanks for making my point for me.

You don't agree that faith comes from God? I do. But, that is the only argument of mine you attack, which just so happens to be the part of the argument we agree on.

If your going to debate me, may I suggest you stick to our points of contention instead of the points in which we agree upon. It's easier that way.

How about you consider my argument based out of Romans 1. Or debate my point that faith is given by God to all men. Neither of these points are contended.

God bless, I await you answer.

Bill

 

Glen this is a great verse, especially in light of verse 1. For Paul is reminding the beleivers to pray for him so that the Word (of which our faith rests in) may spread rapidly just as it had with them before they had faith. Then he goes on to give a prayer request that they will be delivered from the evil men who have not heard of Christ and have yet to place faith in Him. The word faith in this verse is not speaking of a "knowledge and assent" of God's existance as is Romans 1, it is speaking of "the faith" that saves. The faith which has been placed in Christ. Paul is simply saying not all men have faith in Christ. He is in no way impling that these men are unable to have faith in Christ for why would he say in verse one to pray that the word of the Lord spreads rapidly, just as it did with you. If he was not intending to take his faith and preach it to these evil men so that they to might hear it and believe.

"Whosoever will believe" is a geniune call for all men to place their faith in Christ. To deny that all men have that capasity is to make scripture into a deceptive book, saying on the one hand that "all can't have faith" but on the other hand that all are geniunly called to faith in Christ. This is absurd reasoning and not biblically founded.

Your avoiding my point in Romans 1 about no man having an excuse because they all "know God" through his general revelation, which is a measure of faith, is it not?

Bill

 

Therefore, according to the same reasoning, since salvation is referred to as OUR salvation, and we both agree that faith and salvation come from God, it follows that salvation is a universal gift to mankind and we either choose to exercise it or not. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, salvation is made available for all mankind but not all men have faith in Christ, so not all men have salvation applied to their lives and they cannot call in theirs. Salvation is God's and it can become man's through faith.

You believe that faith is a gift of God at the time of their salvation or new birth. But man demonstrates faith in God apart from salvation otherwise how could the men in Romans 1 "know God" if not through the means of faith. Shoot even the demons according to James demonstate a faith in God's existance. Where does that faith come from and why is it given to the lost apart from salvation? The "dead faith" of merely believing God exists becomes saving once their is knowledge and assent to the truths that God reveals through the gospel.

All mankind demonstates faith in something. It's the object of that faith that makes it salvific as the means by which the grace is applied.

Oh brother! What is amazing to me about this is that I actually followed your logic through this cloudy maze of misapplied arguments. And let me say your logic fails miserably in appling to my arguments.

Your contending that since salvation comes through faith (which we should both agree on), that faith can't be universally ginen to all, otherwise salvation would be universally given to all man as well. Which is a ridiculous conclusion to draw from my arguments. Every one can have faith without placing or exercising that faith in Christ. Universal faith in no way necessitates universal salvation, but only the opportunity for a geniune universal call, which is clearly seen throughout scripture.

You have yet to address my argument in Romans 1.

Don't put yourself down to an 8 year old level Npety, your at least at a 10 year old level in my opinion.

Let's start talking about Universal atonement and the scriptures use of the word "all" and then we'll see who starts pulling out the pronouns.

Bill

 

Once again, let me say you are avoiding the arguments.

Faith is a gift of God's grace!!!!!!!!! I AGREE WITH YOU!

Our next breath is a gift of grace. The grace of God that allows us to experience any joy or goodness in our sinful world is above and beyond what any of us deserve. Theologically this is refered to even by Calvinists as "common grace," or grace that everyman experiences from God's graciousness to his creation.

It is within this common grace that God places within everyman the abilty to "know God." That knowledge of his existance is not salvific for even the demons believe that he exists. This is a faith apart from salvation that is inate within every man, making them without excuse and thus responsible to respond to the God they "know" by having faith in his Word.

Once again, please address my arguments.

If you keep saying faith comes from God, I'm going to keep agreeing with you. If you say that faith is a result of God's grace, I'm also going to agree with you. If you say that the Holy Spirit must move in the life of a man before he can have faith in Christ, I will agree with you.

i know I don't fit your usual strawman, and that requires you to actually think before you attack, but it would be nice to deal with the issues that we disagree about, don't you think?

Bro. Bill

 

Once again Rufus you avoid the arguments your doctrinal system can't answer.

Let me ask all of you a very simple question: Can a man "know God" without having any measure of faith? If so, how?

Thanks,
Bill