What is Your Cross?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Larry: In the gospels, Jesus said that people who don't take up the cross and follow him will lose their soul. That teaches us that this is about eternal salvation, and also teaches us that this is not about works.

HP: I appreciated both of your posts. You gave the list much food for thought. I find myself in great agreement with what you have written here.

 

[J. Jump]

The only problem is that even if you are ‘not for Me’ your still in the family according to what I hear you saying, your just going to loose certain privileges or rewards ‘in the kingdom.’ Is that not what you really believe?

Being a part of the family is never lost that is correct. Position within the family is conditional.

You gave the list much food for thought.

I guess if you like gristle. :laugh: Sorry I couldn't resist.

 

[LeBuick]

HP: Forget the wolves. You should be the concern of every believer on the list.

By the way, have you considered anger management classes?

i went to the meetings, I got mad when they asked me to stop coming. Something about being a "counter influence" and causing tension. Can I help it if they can't see things my way? :BangHead:

I turned the other cheek so much my neck does like the girl in the exorcist. I had to put my head on a swivel.

Seriously, dying to self??? Die to self??? Can we really die to self so Christ can live through us? I admit I try my best but the more I try the more hidden parts of self I find. The carnal is a tough thing to loose. I know I'm not worthy but am truely thankful the Lord allows me to continue in his service.

To really get the essence of this verse you must begin back at verse 16. He is letting his followers know they will not be well received as they go forth into the world. We are to follow his path of self denial and sacrifice not for our sake, but for his name sake.

 

[mman]

HP: I agree with your assessment. What does the second part of the verse mean when it says that one that does not take up his cross he ‘is not worthy of me?’

Unless you are willing to crucify yourself, you cannot be His disciple.

Jesus gave his physical life for our sins. We all know the awesome magnitude of that offering. If we count anything, and I mean anything whether it is your mother or father, your job, your own desires, or anything you have, as more important, then we are not worthy of Jesus and cannot be His disciple.

Acts 13:46, Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles."

Jesus also stated, Luke 14:33, So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

So, if we reject Jesus and are not willing to forsake all, then we are unworthy of Jesus and of the everlasting life that He can provide.

If we do accept Him and crucify ourselves, we must continue to walk in a worthy manner.

Here's what it means to walk worthy of the Lord, Col 1:10-14, "that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins."

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Sorry but eternal salvation deals with the spirit and not the soul.

That's not a biblical teaching. That is something someone made up to avoid the biblical teaching.

And dying to self is all about works no matter how you serve it up.

No it's not. Dying is not a work.

Works are works are works are works. Just curious how is "following" not a work?

It's faith. To have faith is to follow Christ, to obey him. That is what saving faith is in Scripture. You have to go outside of Scripture to find anything else.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

When I was young, I first heard John MacArthur Jr, while I was student at Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, MI. There was discussion among students on that person. Because they were talking about MacArthur's beliefs on Christ's blood. They said, MacArthur denied Christ's blood. One student was kicked out from that colleg. Because he was argued with students about Christ's blood. One day, college had a conference. A speaker did talked on MacArthur. He warned them, do not listen to him.

In the summer, I moved to Ohio, to be trained as missionary with deaf pastor. One day, I visited his house. I saw book - "The Gospel According to Jesus" by John MacArthur. THen, I asked him, what does he think of MacArthur? He told me, many pastors against him, they were misunderstood what MacArthur actual believe. I cannot remember the exactly what he told me what MacArthur believes on Christ's blood.

Shortly later, I decdided to buy book, 'The Gospel According to Jesus'. I did read throughout his book. I have so many disagrees with his interpreting. During that time myself was securist before. MacArthurs often emphasis talking about take cross and follow Christ. He said, enter into the narrow to salvation is not easy.

I was angry what MacArthur said about scriptures on salvation. But, later, I realized he is right. BUT, ironically, he believes in security salvation, huh?

This morning I look at Mark 8-34-39. I think, I would like to share with you on this passage.

Mark 8:34- And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, 'Whosever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whoseover will save his life shall lose it; but whosever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man; if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in excahnge for soul? 38 Whosever therefore shall be ASHAMED of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ASHAMED, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

I believe verse 38 warns us, if we do not take cross and save our life(everything what we have), not not follow Christ, by the time we die or Lord comes, we shall be ashamed at the Judgment day. I believe if we refuse take cross and follow Christ, then we shall be cut off from the kingdom, cast away into the everlasting fire.

This is the matter of salvation issue.

Obivously, many scriptures in the Bible mentioned conditional with warnings, these cannot be unconditional security salvation. We must take heed what the Bible saying, obey His words. If we endure till the end, then we shall be saved - Matt. 10:22 & Matt. 24:13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J. Jump]

That's not a biblical teaching. That is something someone made up to avoid the biblical teaching.

Nice opinion with no Scripture to back it up. Not atypical though.

Just try this one James 1:21. Wonder why he's telling these "saved" people that they need to do somethings in order to have their souls saved. Oh I guess it's because their souls aren't saved.

And Truth be told saying that our spirits and souls are the same thing (don't know if you believe that or not) or that our souls and spirits are saved at the same time is something made up to avoid the Biblical teaching.

No it's not. Dying is not a work.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you pastors that expect people to believe you with absolutely no Scripture to back up your opinions really get me. Let's see some Scritpure that say's dying to self is not a work.

It's faith. To have faith is to follow Christ, to obey him.

Sorry, but "doing" is not faith. "Doing" is active participation on the part of the individual. In order to follow and obey you have to "do" some things. That's works. I guess you believe baptism is required for salvation to huh?

That is what saving faith is in Scripture.

No saving faith in Scripture is the belief/acknowledgment that Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, died and shed His blood on my behalf a sinner. Anything added to that is outside of Scripture.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Nice opinion with no Scripture to back it up. Not atypical though.

No Scripture to back it up? Please ... I used the text itself to show that failure to die to self and take up your cross will result in losing your soul. How many times does jesus have to say something until you believe it?

Just try this one James 1:21. Wonder why he's telling these "saved" people that they need to do somethings in order to have their souls saved. Oh I guess it's because their souls aren't saved.

The word is what is able to save souls. Not sure how you miss that ... But that is what the text says. When you receive teh word implanted which is able to save souls, the filthiness and dirtiness of the flesh will have been put off.

And Truth be told saying that our spirits and souls are the same thing (don't know if you believe that or not) or that our souls and spirits are saved at the same time is something made up to avoid the Biblical teaching.

The Bible uses the word soul to refer both to the body and the spirit. There are two parts of man: material and immaterial.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you pastors that expect people to believe you with absolutely no Scripture to back up your opinions really get me. Let's see some Scritpure that say's dying to self is not a work.

Let's see some Scripture that says it is. Jesus says salvation is by faith, and includes dying to self in that salvation. Therefore, dying to self is not a work.

Sorry, but "doing" is not faith. "Doing" is active participation on the part of the individual. In order to follow and obey you have to "do" some things. That's works. I guess you believe baptism is required for salvation to huh?

No, baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Faith in the NT is equated with obedience to the gospel (Rom 1; 2 Thess 1; etc.) It is a commitment to the whole person of Jesus Christ.

No saving faith in Scripture is the belief/acknowledgment that Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, died and shed His blood on my behalf a sinner. Anything added to that is outside of Scripture.

Saving faith in Scripture includes repentance (turning from sin and following Christ).

Notice how many passages you have to ignore to get your position.

And lastly, notice how you, who complained that I didnt' use Scripture, used absolutely none. Here is the difference: My position is supported by Scripture. Your's is not.

 

[J. Jump]

No Scripture to back it up? Please ...

Yeah you used the Scripture in question. That doesn't prove your point that the soul is saved. That only proves that the soul can be lost. Which is can. By the way the text was given to disciples. Wonder why Jesus told saved individuals that if they didn't take up their cross they would lose their soul? You believe in conditional security?

How many times does jesus have to say something until you believe it?

Jesus only has to say it once for me. How about you?

The word is what is able to save souls.

EXACTLY! Able means its possible not it has happened. These folks souls were not saved, but they were ABLE TO BE saved IF they did what James was saying. Not sure how you miss that.

When you receive teh word implanted which is able to save souls, the filthiness and dirtiness of the flesh will have been put off.

EXACTLY! But James was telling these saved folks to DO that, because they HAD NOT done that yet. That's what the text says!

The Bible uses the word soul to refer both to the body and the spirit. There are two parts of man: material and immaterial.

Not surprising you believe that nonsense. God created us in His image. God is three parts and man is three parts.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

How many times does God have to say something before you believe Him? And that's just ONE verse.

Jesus says salvation is by faith, and includes dying to self in that salvation.

Scripture?

It's no wonder we have so many people messed up in Christendom when we have "pastors" spouting unBiblical nonsense about people being two parts and having to add all kinds of things to grace through faith plus NOTHING.

Here's some Scripture for you Acts 16:30-31 - believe PLUS NOTHING and you WILL BE saved. How many times does God have to say something before you will believe it? I guess Paul just left out a few steps . . . poor jailor. He's going to burn for all eternity because Paul was having a bad day huh?

How about Ephesians 2:8-9 which says you HAVE BEEN SAVED by grace through faith apart from works.

Your espousing a plan of salvation that will never be complete until someone dies and that's NOT what Scripture says.

And lastly, notice how you, who complained that I didnt' use Scripture, used absolutely none.

Last time I checked James was still a part of Scripture. Another nice statement on your part with no evidence to back it up, which shows you to be mistaken at best.

Here is the difference: My position is supported by Scripture. Your's is not.

:laugh: That's a good one. Was that you that I saw trying out for Last Comic Standing the other night?

EDIT: I forgot to address this

No, baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

How about Mark 16:16. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. How do you deal with that one?

 

[Pastor Larry]

By the way the text was given to disciples. Wonder why Jesus told saved individuals that if they didn't take up their cross they would lose their soul? You believe in conditional security?

It was given to the people around him, which made up more than disciples. It was also given to teach the disciples the nature of saving faith.

Jesus only has to say it once for me. How about you?

Apparently not.

EXACTLY! Able means its possible not it has happened. These folks souls were not saved, but they were ABLE TO BE saved IF they did what James was saying. Not sure how you miss that.

not sure what you think I missed. You ripped a verse out of context, a verse that agrees with me, and then try to make it agree with you. That makes no sense.

Not surprising you believe that nonsense. God created us in His image. God is three parts and man is three parts.

That has no biblical support.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

How many times does God have to say something before you believe Him? And that's just ONE verse.

He only has to say it once. What does this mean? When you study it, you will see that it means the entire person. God is not really three parts. He is three persons. Man is not three persons. You really should think and study before you say this stuff.

Scripture?

All of it.

It's no wonder we have so many people messed up in Christendom when we have "pastors" spouting unBiblical nonsense about people being two parts and having to add all kinds of things to grace through faith plus NOTHING.

You would have to offer more than your mere opinion that dichotomy is unbiblical nonsense, and you need to repent of lying for saying that I have added anything to grace through faith plus nothing. I have not. I fully affirm the historic doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Here's some Scripture for you Acts 16:30-31 - believe PLUS NOTHING and you WILL BE saved. How many times does God have to say something before you will believe it? I guess Paul just left out a few steps . . . poor jailor. He's going to burn for all eternity because Paul was having a bad day huh?

No, I fully affirm Acts 16:30-31.

How about Ephesians 2:8-9 which says you HAVE BEEN SAVED by grace through faith apart from works.

Great verse. It is exactly what I believe and what I have defended here and elsewhere.

Your espousing a plan of salvation that will never be complete until someone dies and that's NOT what Scripture says.

No, I am not. You haven’t read very closely if you think that.

How about Mark 16:16. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. How do you deal with that one?

What’s there to deal with? It is true. He is believes and is baptized will be saved. It says nothing about he who believes and is not baptized, does it? That person is also still saved. If you look at the whole verse, it says he who has disbelieved is condemned. When you take the whole verse, you see belief is the key to salvation. Baptism naturally follows that as a public testimony.

It seems that your problem may just be a lack of serious study combined with an abundance of poor teaching. If this is what you have learned at your church, I urge you very strongly to find a church where the Bible is taught and honored as God’s word rather than man’s opinion.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Pastor Larry,

You say,

God is not really three parts. He is three persons. Man is not three persons.

.

Ok, do you believe in Trinity? I do believe in Trinity according 1 John 5:7-8.

In Genesis 1:26 says: "And God said, 'Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fiesh of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

It tells us, There is more a person invloved created a man. Clearly, Jesus was there. Even, Holy Spirit was there also.

Gen. 2:7 says: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and the man became a living soul."

How did we received soul come from? Comes from God. Even, we also received spirit comes from God too.

All animals are flesh - body, but do not have soul. There is much difference between animals and humans. All humans have soul and spirit both.

During Old Testament period, Jesus was an angelic beings, he doesn't have body at that time. He is spirit.

Christ came down from heaven into Virgin Mary's womb became flesh. So, therefore, God actually become man for us. Yes, God is 100% man, 100% spirit, 100% soul. Because Jesus Christ is deity of God. Jesus is 100% God.

Now, Jesus is in the heaven sitting on the right hand of God the Father. Even, there is the only ONE actual man(in flesh) is now in the heaven - Jesus!!!

We all do have soul, spirit, and body all three are in one, just like an apple have three parts yet it is one.

When we trusted and believed in Christ, the Holy Spirit came into our body, having spirit from God's. Holy Spirit sealed within us - Eph. 1:13.

But, it doesn't mean we are already guaranteed already saved at once for good. Ephesians 1:14 says, "Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

I want to discuss this verse is very important for every Christians need to understand.

OSAS's bad habit by using Eph. 1:13 as proof of security salvation -"sealed" by the Holy Spirit. They believe when we onced trusted, believed, the Holy Spirit already sealed within us, prove that he is already locked in us just like John 10:28-29. No one can pluck us out of Christ's hand, we already saved at once for forever. John 10:28-29 is a wonderful passage of promise.

But. We have to read scriptures carefully.

Notice Eph. 1:14 word, 'earnest' means down payment. It gives us the picture of being engaged. When boyfriend and girlfriend both having good relationship for a while. So, one day, boyfriend decided to buy engaged ring for his girlfriend. He surprises her by giving it to her. He says to her, "Would you marry me?" Then she shocks, and say yes. BUT, this is not mean they both are guaranteed to be marry for sure yet. They could break up in the midst of their process toward wedding day. So, therefore, they are not offically married.

Same with the picture of the Holy Spirit dwells in saints' body as "engaged". But, saints are not yet "marry" to Jesus Christ. Not till Revelation chapter 19 at second advent. Right now, Jesus is built his church(Matt. 16:18-19). Christ is NOT yet marry to Church. Because, the church is not complete glorified, they are still being purifying through fire right now.

In Eph. 5:30 warns us, "And grieve not the holy Spirit pf God, (WHY? Because...) whereby ye are sealed UNTO the day of REDEMPTION."

Right now, we are not yet redemption, we all still have flesh(old nature), because we are in spiritual warfare. We not yet receive glorify new body. We will receive glorify new body that will be follow at the Christ's coming - 1 Cor. 15:51-57.

It warns us, do not grieve the Holy Spirit, BECAUSE we are being engaged with Christ, we are not yet marry to Christ till second advent. OR... what IF, we grieving the Holy Spirit, then he would left or loosed us out, just like as in John 10:27-29 telling us, we are being hold or secure in Christ's hand LONG AS we continue follow Christ same time. Or, if we stopped follow Christ, then we might be looosed out of His hand.

These are many warnings in the Bible about our conditional salvation. If we forsake Christ, then we might lose our spirit(from above's)- salvation.

We all have three parts. Before we born again, our spiritual were dead, when we believed in Christ, received the spirit from above. We became alive. BUT, if we walk in the dark, then we would dead again. That is not funny.

We must be endure all the way to the end then we shall be saved according Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13. Or, if we do not endure in the midst of our life, then we shall not be saved at the end(at our death or Lord comes).

Entering into the door(Matt. 7:14) is not easy. Entering into the door, being cost our life, we have to face hardship life, forsake world, follow Christ all the way to the end. or if we quit, then we shall not make it to enter the door( 'FINISH LINE'). That means, we would be doomed('destruction') to everlasting fire (Matt. 7:13).

Conditional salvation is not funny.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J. Jump]

It was given to the people around him, which made up more than disciples.

That doesn't seem to be entirely true. Matthew has two accounts of taking up the cross and following Jesus and only one of the account includes a crowd of folks along with the disciples. The first time it was the disciples alone. And the disciples were saved individuals they didn't need to know about what they already had, they needed to know about discipleship.

Discipleship is not a part of the eternal salvation message. Discipleship is works. So unless you want to confess a works based salvation you are barking up the wrong tree. Even look at the subheadings. They even say the passage is talking about discipleship not eternal salvation.

That has no biblical support.

Well let's just see about that.

Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

Boy you are just really struggling. In fact we ARE made in the image and likeness of God. God is Three-in-One just as man is. Father (Soul), Son (Body) and Spirit (Spirit).

I've already given you Scripture that says we are body, soul and spirit so nothing more needs to be said on that matter.

Scripture speaks louder than I any day.

you will see that it means the entire person.

And what is the entire person made up of according to that verse BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT. It really shouldn't be that difficult, but I understand why it is.

You really should think and study before you say this stuff.

Kettle meet pot.

You would have to offer more than your mere opinion that dichotomy is unbiblical nonsense,

Already have. It's called Scripture.

you need to repent of lying for saying that I have added anything to grace through faith plus nothing. I have not.

Do I need to pull out your quote where you added repentance and obedience? Surely you remember saying that. That's adding to believe plus NOTHING. And that's adding to grace through FAITH.

Repentance and obedience are NOT faith. Or faith would be used not the words repentance and obedience. Those aren't the same thing.

Great verse. It is exactly what I believe and what I have defended here and elsewhere

No it's not, because you said a person has to be obedient. Obedience last more than just a moment. Eph. 2:8-9 is talking about a moment in the person's past not a series of events like you are.

What’s there to deal with? It is true. He is believes and is baptized will be saved. It says nothing about he who believes and is not baptized, does it? That person is also still saved. If you look at the whole verse, it says he who has disbelieved is condemned. When you take the whole verse, you see belief is the key to salvation. Baptism naturally follows that as a public testimony.

Nice Baptist weasling. See I grew up Baptist and now all about how Baptists try to wiggle out of that verse, because I used to say the same thing. It doesn't work. Just ask any CoC person.

Now don't get me wrong I don't believe baptism is required for eternal salvation either, but you have just proven that you pick and choose which parts you add to the equation and which parts you decide to leave off for whatever reason.

If you truly understood the entire plan of salvation you would know why that verse isn't talking about eternal salvation at all.

It seems that your problem may just be a lack of serious study combined with an abundance of poor teaching.

That's funny. :laugh: Did you make it to the Vegas finals? If you think I have had a serious lack of study and some poor teaching were does that leave you? :tonofbricks:

This will be my last response to you as I know you are not going to be convinced by what I say. You won't believe the plain reading of the Scriptures why would you believe me, I mean you are a pastor. What possibly do I have to teach a pastor.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: And the disciples were saved individuals they didn't need to know about what they already had, they needed to know about discipleship.

HP: Then you must definitely believe at least one lost his salvation.

 

[J. Jump]

Then you must definitely believe at least one lost his salvation.

Not at all. Why would I believe that? Unless you can prove that spiritually dead people can cast out demons, which means that Satan casts out Satan, which Christ said was impossible then Judas was a saved individual. And Scritpture is plain and clear that we can not lose our everlasting life.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Not at all. Why would I believe that? Unless you can prove that spiritually dead people can cast out demons, which means that Satan casts out Satan, which Christ said was impossible then Judas was a saved individual. And Scritpture is plain and clear that we can not lose our everlasting life.

HP: Then you must believe that Judas was not lost. Joh 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Possibly lost does not mean lost?

 

[J. Jump]

Possibly lost does not mean lost?

Nope. Lost means lost. But what it DOESN'T mean is destined for the lake of fire for the endless ages. That is a man-made connection, not a Scriptural one.

Nowhere in Scripture is the word lost referred to as being unborn from the family. How can a person be unborn anyway? Once you are born you are born. There's no going back. Once you are in the family you will ALWAYS be a part of that family.

Your mom and dad can kick you to the curb, but you are still a family member.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Nope. Lost means lost. But what it DOESN'T mean is destined for the lake of fire for the endless ages. That is a man-made connection, not a Scriptural one.

Nowhere in Scripture is the word lost referred to as being unborn from the family. How can a person be unborn anyway? Once you are born you are born. There's no going back. Once you are in the family you will ALWAYS be a part of that family.

Your mom and dad can kick you to the curb, but you are still a family member.

HP: So here we have it according to JJ. Satan himself can enter ones heart and possess the man and the man still is saved all the time.

Something tells me we have a serious problem.

 

[J. Jump]

I don't think we are ever told that he was actually possessed by Satan. Now unless you can prove two things one that Satan can cast out himself and that everlasting salvation is something that can be lost you are simply going to have to realize that the text where it says Satan entered him does not mean possession.

Bottom line is Judas was saved. Unsaved people can not cast out demons. It's an impossibility as they have no power in and of themselves to do it and they don't have any supernatural authority to do it, because the only authority they could use is Satan himself.

And I think you are going to have a hard time proving with Scripture that everlasting life is something you can have and then lose.

So unless you want to take a crack at both of those your wise cracks aren't going to get you anywhere.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ:So unless you want to take a crack at both of those your wise cracks aren't going to get you anywhere.

HP: Are devils saved? Jesus called Judas a devil.

 

[J. Jump]

Are devils saved? Jesus called Judas a devil.

Is Satan saved? Jesus called Peter Satan.