What is Your Cross?

[J. Jump]

This doctrine of demons is clear. It preaches that 95% of the NT scriptures is preaching about how the saved can have their souls saved.

The actual truth is that 95% of the entire bible is about saving the living soul God created and there is no seperate salvation between soul and spirit taught, ever!

Satan always attacks God's Word in ways that dirrectly opposes the truth. Sad part is some well meaning Christians do fall for it just like Eve in the garden...."Yea, did God really say".......twisting and turning the truth at every rebuke!

You know these types of posts make me chuckle and then they really sadden me, because they are so many people that "say" the right words, but couldn't be so far from the actual Truth.

As HoG said you have mentioned some Truth in this post, but you have some GRAVE error as well.

I think it's better that you and the majority of Christendom thinks and teaches that 95% of the NT teaches about the simple message of grace through faith apart from works.

You know that's something I've never understood and nobody for "your" side has ever even attempted to answer and that is if Paul can put the message of salvation into two verses . . . believe and you will be saved . . . why do you folks think there needs to be 27 books of Scripture to explain a message that is so simple?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Satan even tried to get Jesus to do his will!

Unfortunately, Satan knows the Scriptures better than a lot of Christians.

He decieved Eve and he can deceive us - saved or not...

That is why we must always have on the "whole armor of God".

Someone once told me to put it on first thing in the morning.

I told them I never take it off...

 

[LeBuick]

That is why we must always have on the "whole armor of God".

Someone once told me to put it on first thing in the morning.

I told them I never take it off...

Great response!!! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

Satan even tried to get Jesus to do his will!

Great point!

I told them I never take it off...

Isn't that hard to roll over in bed with all that on :laugh:. Don't let the sword poke ya.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Oh poor HP . . . is no one coming to the rescue of your false work-based eternal salvation plan? Maybe they realize that while they may not agree with me your works-based plan of salvation with no security is disgusting and not worth supporting either.

HP: What exactly does this ‘works based plan of salvation with no security' you suggest I believe in consist of ?

 

[J. Jump]

What exactly does this ‘works based plan of salvation with no security' you suggest I believe in consist of ?

You don't need me to explain your beliefs to you. Goodness man you are knowledgeable enough to never have met me and still know what I truly believe and what is just a fake belief in my life. Surely you know what you believe then. :laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: You don't need me to explain your beliefs to you. Goodness man you are knowledgeable enough to never have met me and still know what I truly believe and what is just a fake belief in my life. Surely you know what you believe then.

HP: When you make an accusation, you either need to back it up with facts, explain to the list why such a notion is the logical ends of ones argument, etc. That is precisely what I did with the issues I mentioned concerning your beliefs.

The problem is that you have never shown forth that I believe in salvation by works, yet you falsely charge me with holding to such beliefs. Kindly show the list you have substance to back up your claims that I believe in a ‘works based plan of salvation with no security,' or admit what I already know, that you do not know whereof you speak.

 

[J. Jump]

When you make an accusation, you either need to back it up with facts, explain to the list why such a notion is the logical ends of ones argument, etc. That is precisely what I did with the issues I mentioned concerning your beliefs.

The problem is that you have never shown forth that I believe in salvation by works, yet you falsely charge me with holding to such beliefs. Kindly show the list you have substance to back up your claims that I believe in a ‘works based plan of salvation with no security,' or admit what I already know, that you do not know whereof you speak.

How about let's make this a lot easier. Answer a few questions so that everyone will know what you believe and that will fix everything. If I have mischaracterized your beliefs then I will apologize.

1. How is a person eternally saved?
2. Is this salvation immediate or is this salvation a life-long process?
3. Can this salvation be lost because of ANY action/belief/lack of action/lack of belief on the part of the individual?

You answer those simple three questions and we'll all know where you stand, and once again if I have mischaracterized your belief system I will apologize. Fair enough?

 

[D28guy]

H.P....

"According to you it doesn’t make a hill of beans what you do."

Of course it matters what we do or dont do. But it does not effect our eternal destination. That is secure, and becomes ours by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

"You can even sell out Christ Himself for thirty pieces of silver and be saved all the time."

We ALL sell out Christ from time to time. Anytime we prove that we arent perfect like He was and fail him, we "sell Him out". It disapoints Him, but He keeps right on loving us and keeping us in His hands.

Christ...

"And no one can snatch them out of my hands", referring to us.

"All this talk about ‘needing to die to self’ is a sham with you, mere meaningless verbiage."

Nonsense. It is of great importance to us.

"What you really mean is that it might be nice if you do, or that maybe you should, but you deny the Word of God that says ‘if you do not’ you are not worthy of Him."

According to your theology than nobody will be saved and heaven will be empty of anyone but 3.

"If there was ever a case of presenting a case of a sinning religion, JJ has presented it clearly for all to see."

Christ...

"I have not come for the rightious, but for sinners."

Paul...

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief"

"Don't tell me that some in the Calvinist circles do not preach that one can be saved yet be practricing sin."

Every last one of us contiunes to sin after we are born again. None of us...including you...ever become sinlessly perfect in this life.

Let me ask you a simple question, and I would like a clear, "yes" or "no" answer:

Have you ceased your sinning?

Yes or no.

Mike

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

D28Guy: Have you ceased your sinning?

Yes or no.

HP: If I said yes, you would simply call me a liar. I can certainly think of better places to cast pearls. If I said no, what would that prove?? What does Scripture say? That is what is important. “1Pe 4:1 ¶ Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;”

I like the Apostle Paul’s testimony. 1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.”

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: How about let's make this a lot easier. Answer a few questions so that everyone will know what you believe and that will fix everything. If I have mischaracterized your beliefs then I will apologize.

HP: You made the charge. You either substanciate it from what you have heard me say in the past and are making reference to, or admit that you do not know whereof you speak. Once you make a claim it is up to you, not I , to substantiate your accusations. Prove to the list you have a correct understanding of my beliefs as you say you do, and therefore are correct in your assessment of them

 

[OHM]

You made the charge. You either substanciate it from what you have heard me say in the past and are making reference to, or admit that you do not know whereof you speak. Once you make a claim it is up to you, not I , to substantiate your accusations. Prove to the list you have a correct understanding of my beliefs as you say you do, and therefore are correct in your assessment of them

So you want to play games. Sorry no time for that . All you have to do is answer three "simple" questions. If you don't want to do that, it's on you.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OHM: So you want to play games. Sorry no time for that . All you have to do is answer three "simple" questions. If you don't want to do that, it's on you.

HP:The burden of proof lie upon JJ, not myself, to prove or substantiate the claims made by JJ.
I have posted hundreds of posts. JJ has made a claim and I ask him to support it with facts. Why should I provide JJ with any further fodder than what he already claims to have? Let JJ substantiate the claims made with the evidence JJ thinks JJ has as to what I believe, or withdraw the unsupported and false comments.

 

[Amy.G]

HP, FYI, OHM is JJump.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: FYI, OHM is JJump.

HP: Thank you for the info Amy. Why three names JJ?

 

[OHM]

HP, FYI, OHM is JJump.

Yeah 'cause that was really hard to figure out.

Why three names JJ?

Actually it's just two. FYI means for your information. As for my two names it's because I am using a different computer and I didn't remember what my login information was a couple of years ago, so I created a new account. And my second account is the only one I can remember .

By the way again I don't have time to play your games. People can go back and read your posts on this thread and see for themselves. You have an opportunity to set the record straight and you are choosing not to.

And another by the way you have mischaracterized my views in this thread as well, but I don't see you substantiating anything with what I have said. You have merely taken the liberty to say things about me that just aren't true.

So I'm wondering why I have to jump through hoops, but you don't. Hmmm . . .

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: So I'm wondering why I have to jump through hoops, but you don't.

HP: Duh! Go figure. That shouldn’t be too hard to figure out with a name like 'JJump':laugh:

JJ: 1. How is a person eternally saved?

HP: By finding ourselves being represented by the One and Only Advocate Jesus Christ at the final judgment. Jus the same, it can be rightfully said we are saved in this world as we receive the earnest of that hope and hold it by faith in obedience unto the end.

JJ: 2. Is this salvation immediate or is this salvation a life-long process?

HP: In a sense, both. We receive the earnest of our hope immediately, and will receive the end, the absolute knowledge of that hope, at the final judgment.

JJ: 3. Can this salvation be lost because of ANY action/belief/lack of action/lack of belief on the part of the individual?

HP: How can you lose something you only hold the earnest to in this life? What we forfeit is the ‘earnest’ of our salvation, our present hope of eternal life, if we fail to endure to the end. One would simply not be found in Christ at the final judgement if this were to be the case.

 

[OHM]

Thank you for answering the questions and I think that it should be easy for all to see that you are espousing a works-based salvation.

By finding ourselves being represented by the One and Only Advocate Jesus Christ at the final judgment.

The final judgment is a judgment of works not faith. Whether or not you are saved is determined before you die not after you die.

Once you die it will never be a question of whether your believed or not, but what did you do.

Only saved individuals will be at the JSOC and the judgment of Matthew 25. The eternally unsaved will be at the GWT judgment.

In a sense, both. We receive the earnest of our hope immediately, and will receive the end, the absolute knowledge of that hope, at the final judgment.

Eternal salvation is never portrayed in Scripture as a life-long process. It is a moment in time not a process. You believe (aorist [punctual action]) and you "will be" saved. Not might be, but will be.

Eph. 2:8-9 - says you "have been saved" over and done with.

How can you lose something you only hold the earnest to in this life?

And the "earnest" is not speaking to eternal salvation, because that is a finished event, completed in the past.

if we fail to endure to the end.

Your reliance is on yourself not on Christ. That is works based salvation.

So in closing I think you have proved what I said to be 100% accurate.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Thank you for answering the questions and I think that it should be easy for all to see that you are espousing a works-based salvation.

HP: By finding ourselves being represented by the One and Only Advocate Jesus Christ at the final judgment.

JJ: The final judgment is a judgment of works not faith. Whether or not you are saved is determined before you die not after you die.

HP: Where does Scriptures inform us of that?

JJ: Once you die it will never be a question of whether your believed or not, but what did you do.

HP: Where do you find that in Scripture?

JJ: Only saved individuals will be at the JSOC and the judgment of Matthew 25. The eternally unsaved will be at the GWT judgment.

HP Do you have a Scriptural reference for that assumption?


HP: In a sense, both. We receive the earnest of our hope immediately, and will receive the end, the absolute knowledge of that hope, at the final judgment.

JJ: Eternal salvation is never portrayed in Scripture as a life-long process. It is a moment in time not a process. You believe (aorist [punctual action]) and you "will be" saved. Not might be, but will be.

HP: Absolutely you will be saved in a moment,………to a hope of eternal life based on sure promises and will come to fruition IF we remain faithful unto the end.

JJ:Eph. 2:8-9 - says you "have been saved" over and done with.

HP: When we meet the conditions God has set forth by repentance and faith, we indeed enter into our hope of eternal life. That in no wise states that one cannot leave that hope by turning from that hope and make shipwreck of their faith. Scripture never represents salvation as only a one time act, unless you desire to find one proof text to hold onto to the destruction of all the warnings to the contrary.
Quote:
How can you lose something you only hold the earnest to in this life?

JJ: And the "earnest" is not speaking to eternal salvation, because that is a finished event, completed in the past.

HP: Only if you start from an unscriptural presupposition as you have just stated, in that the whole sum of our salvation has been completed in the past.
Quote:
if we fail to endure to the end.

JJ: Your reliance is on yourself not on Christ. That is works based salvation.

HP: Apart from Christ, salvation is impossible to conceive of. How is my reliance upon myself and not upon Christ? Just because I do not believe that God necessities some to salvation while creating and necessitating others to damnation through no fault of their own, and believe that God created us as moral beings with a will as opposed to rocks. This does not equate to believing that my reliance is on myself. Far from it. I am trusting in the finished work of Christ to provide an Advocate to plead my case. No amount of works could ever make up for even a single sin. It is impossible to conceive of a works based salvation, just the same, there are conditions God has stated that you must do, ‘without which,’ (NOT ‘for the sake of,’) no man shall see the Lord.

 

[OHM]

For your previous questions just look at the judgment passages.

In a sense, both. We receive the earnest of our hope immediately, and will receive the end, the absolute knowledge of that hope, at the final judgment.

The earnest is not for eternal slavation, but a hope of glory. We don't "hope" we are saved for eternity. We know that.

Glory is the only thing hoped for and that has to do with the kingdom.

Absolutely you will be saved in a moment,………to a hope of eternal life based on sure promises and will come to fruition IF we remain faithful unto the end.

Scripture never says saved unto a hope meaning that we have to wait for our eternal salvation. We are passed from death to life. That is not a hope that is a reality.

How is my reliance upon myself and not upon Christ?

At best you are looking for a 50-50. I'll believe on Christ's works, but "I" always have to believe. You are relying on "you" never stopping to believe. Therefore the finished works of Christ are not good enough. You too have to be good enough to endure to the end. That's a reliance on self.