What is your view of death from Adam that all inherited

[psalms109:31]

Romans 6:
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

To me there is only two sides all of us is born dead to God and alive in the world or in our new creation alive in Christ and dead to the world.

We were all enmity to God, everyone one of us. We were all sinners dead to God. To say we are corpses to God I agree, but alive in the world not dead. The natural man is not dumb to what they see, they see themselves living and breathing in the world not a corpse.

It starts off with a messenger who loves his enemies and befriends those who don't agree with them reach them where they are a natural man and show them there is a God by what God has made and when they acknowledge there is a God and then tell them of the Gospel message of Jesus Christ. If they trust in Jesus and what He has done and learn from Jesus, they do not need to understand but trust in Jesus and it is Jesus who changes our lives and teaches us. If they don't trust in Jesus move on, dust your boots off, maybe with more witnesses preaching the same thing they may one day come to Christ. We should continue praying for them and the seed that was planted that Satan will not snatch the seed or that the individual will not let trials and tribulation choke it out.

We should never forget that we were where they are.

2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 4:
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

What is your view of death in Adam?

 

[Van]

The short answer is if a person is spiritually "in Adam" they are dead in their sins, but if a person is transferred into Christ, then they are made alive, regenerated together with Christ, Ephesians 2:4-5.

Now the characteristic of death that is in view is separation from the living, i.e the living God. And just as physically dead people cannot bridge the gap and be reunited with the living, spiritually dead people cannot bridge the gap and reunite with the living God.

Now Calvinism adds to this simple Bible truth and claims being spiritually dead results in total spiritual inability, that unregenerate folks cannot seek God or respond to the gospel in wholehearted faith.
But every time in scripture where someone loses their ability, for example Romans 11, the Calvinist addition to the text is shown to be falsehood.

Enmity is that which separates men from men, i.e. Jews from Gentiles, or that which separates men from God, our iniquity has caused a separation. So a mind set on the world or fleshly desires, in opposition to God establishes emnity between man and God, but OTOH, our sin and tresspasses establishes emnity between God and mankind. And who overcame this barrier? Christ Jesus on the cross!

 

[psalms109:31]

Critique People

I don't want to critique people in this, I just want to hear from you.

I am alive by is a message from what others seen. I have not had a revelation of revelation as John has, nor was I caught up to the third heaven.

My faith, the word of life came from witnesses that God has chosen and the spreading of the message.

This is what Jesus said

John 13:16
"Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him."

I have not seen heaven and I know I will by faith, not by these physical eyes that will deceive me for what i see is temporal, but what i don't see is eternal

Jesus also said this,

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I am alive in Christ, but i still see through these natural, physical eyes.

 

[psalms109:31]

"No being needs to go after life if he has life in himself"

C.H. Spurgeon

 

[glfredrick]

I am still trying to figure out how we can be -- at the same time, as Van proposes -- "dead" and yet "alive" enough to choose.

 

[freeatlast]

I am still trying to figure out how we can be -- at the same time, as Van proposes -- "dead" and yet "alive" enough to choose.

Spiritual death does not mean we are vegetables. Every nation and peoples from the fall have followed self made religions on their own which proves that man has an innate need for something or someone greater then he is.
The problem is that there is no way for us to come to the truth without being exposed to that truth through the word of God. No man finds God by searching for a higher power as we need God to reveal Himself to us. Once revealed we can choose.

In regards to the thread we inherited spiritual death, separation from God and even though we were left with a need for God we have no way to find Him on our own. He must come to us.

 

[webdog]

I am still trying to figure out how we can be -- at the same time, as Van proposes -- "dead" and yet "alive" enough to choose.

Apply this to Paul stating we are "dead to sin" and therein lies your answer.

 

[webdog]

What is your view of death in Adam?

We die spiritually as Adam died spiritually. Since his sin brought the curse and death everything born is under the curse.

 

[Skandelon]

I am still trying to figure out how we can be -- at the same time, as Van proposes -- "dead" and yet "alive" enough to choose.

In the same way you, a believer, are 'dead to sin' (ref Rm 6), yet alive enough to choose to sin.

Or, maybe you can explain how someone is dead and yet 'alive' enough to rebel and run from God? Do corpses run and rebel? Don't they just lay there unresponsive?

I think this shows Calvinists have taken the analogy too far.

 

[glfredrick]

Jhn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


Jhn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


Jhn 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.


Jhn 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.


Jhn 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

 

[beameup]

Bodily corruption, since Adam still had direct communication with God; as did Abel, even after he murdered his brother.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? - 1 Cor 15:55

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. -1 Cor 15:22

 

[glfredrick]

Bodily corruption, since Adam still had direct communication with God; as did Abel, even after he murdered his brother.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? - 1 Cor 15:55

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. -1 Cor 15:22

When did that come to a halt, or is it still in effect?

 

[convicted1]

Jhn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


Jhn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


Jhn 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.


Jhn 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.


Jhn 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

I agree with all of this, eventhough I am in the other "camp".

 

[glfredrick]

I agree with all of this, eventhough I am in the other "camp".

It is not like ANY of us has a choice to believe that or not. It IS the Word of God.

We are ALL condemned and Christ came into the world to save "some." That is the Word of God.

Further, right before this, Jesus explained to Nicodemus how the Holy Spirit is like the wind:

Jhn 3:8 The wind [pneuma = Spirit] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

It would seem to me, from a very cursory reading, that Jesus was trying to get through the thick skull of a teacher of Israel that God's born again from above salvific experience is something OTHER than mere mental belief or assent of man.

We can neither be "born again from above" on our own effort nor "born of the Spirit" on our own effort -- or even our own choice. It is all God's grace.

 

[convicted1]

It is not like ANY of us has a choice to believe that or not. It IS the Word of God.

Agreed. :thumbsup:

We are ALL condemned and Christ came into the world to save "some." That is the Word of God.

Well, Apostle Paul wrote that Jesus came to save sinners.

Further, right before this, Jesus explained to Nicodemus how the Holy Spirit is like the wind:

Jhn 3:8 The wind [pneuma = Spirit] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Yes. But you're stating that there's another step in the salvation process. Being born from above/born again are referring to being saved, not step 1 and step 2.

It would seem to me, from a very cursory reading, that Jesus was trying to get through the thick skull of a teacher of Israel that God's born again from above salvific experience is something OTHER than mere mental belief or assent of man.

Belief is a necessary in salvation. You won't trust something you don't believe. Belief can only happen when God draws, howeve.

We can neither be "born again from above" on our own effort nor "born of the Spirit" on our own effort -- or even our own choice. It is all God's grace.

Except ye believe I am He ye shall die in your sins. Believing is a choice.

 

[beameup]

When did that come to a halt, or is it still in effect?

The Holy Spirit is still speaking for any that will listen. I'm afraid most have gone stone deaf. 1 Kin 19:12b

"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from
every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; - Acts 17:27-28

 

[glfredrick]

In another thread I just laid out what our "sin" of birth actually is -- the absence of God. I use "darkness" as a metaphor (as does the Bible) to describe the issue. There is no such thing as "darkness." What it is, is the absence of light. Light is actually "something" -- photons, God, light. Darkness is the absence of that -- "nothing." So, in essence, God did not "create" darkness, for darkness is what is when there is no God (no light -- Read John 1-3).

Our birth sin is akin to darkness. It is the absence of God. It is not some-thing in that it is created. God is not the "author" of sin because sin is the absence of God. God, however, is the author of light and the author of salvation because both are found in His presence.

So, our initial state is that of being absent of God and the sins (note the "s") are the actions (verbs) that those with an absence of God do for any number of reasons, on purpose, by accident, by ommission, by commission, but they are dependent on God being absent, for in God there is no sin(s).

Hope that helps you to understand.

 

[Luke2427]

In another thread I just laid out what our "sin" of birth actually is -- the absence of God. I use "darkness" as a metaphor (as does the Bible) to describe the issue. There is no such thing as "darkness." What it is, is the absence of light. Light is actually "something" -- photons, God, light. Darkness is the absence of that -- "nothing." So, in essence, God did not "create" darkness, for darkness is what is when there is no God (no light -- Read John 1-3).

Our birth sin is akin to darkness. It is the absence of God. It is not some-thing in that it is created. God is not the "author" of sin because sin is the absence of God. God, however, is the author of light and the author of salvation because both are found in His presence.

So, our initial state is that of being absent of God and the sins (note the "s") are the actions (verbs) that those with an absence of God do for any number of reasons, on purpose, by accident, by ommission, by commission, but they are dependent on God being absent, for in God there is no sin(s).

Hope that helps you to understand.

This is Augustine's evil as privation.

I brought it up six months ago or so.

Skandelon's retort is something like this: "So murder and rape (sins) are NOTHING?!?!"

I said, "Yes. In the same way that cold is nothing but the absence of heat and yet cold can cause terrible suffering and death. Yes. In the same way that hunger is nothing but the absence of nourishment but it causes great misery and death, etc..."

 

[psalms109:31]

We know by God and His commandments that God does not desire these evils to happen, rape, murder and such.

The devil has been given freedom, but God has given man domenion also.

He has given us what we need to fight against the schemes of the devil, not the schemes of God.

 

[glfredrick]

This is Augustine's evil as privation.

I brought it up six months ago or so.

Skandelon's retort is something like this: "So murder and rape (sins) are NOTHING?!?!"

I said, "Yes. In the same way that cold is nothing but the absence of heat and yet cold can cause terrible suffering and death. Yes. In the same way that hunger is nothing but the absence of nourishment but it causes great misery and death, etc..."

It IS the answer to the question that is so often posed concerning a sovereign God -- He could not "author" what is merely His absence. He can "allow" His absence, but there is nothing to "author."